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Subject: Starship Troopers - Neofascist or not?
mike_golf    1/18/2004 9:24:18 PM
Okay, I've read two different pieces that categorized the political scenario in Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" as fascist or neofascist. I've just got to hope they are saying this because they saw the movie, but didn't read the book. While I don't necessarily agree with the concept of earning your citizenship by military service (although I don't fully disagree either) that doesn't make it fascist. In fact, it is made quite clear throughout the book that those who are not citizens hold the military in contempt for the most part and don't value the franchise to vote highly at all. This is quite the opposite of the fascist paradigm, so full of military and para-military propaganda, pomp and spectacle. In a fascist country everyone can vote, but the person they will vote for is pre-determined. Often it is their only choice. I think that Heinlein used the government as a tool to point out some of the flaws in our current government in the US. Heinlein was heavily influenced by Ayn Rand and by precepts of Libertarianism (Originally called Liberalism before Liberal came to be synonymous with social democracy) and was extremely unlikely to ever advocate anything as authoritarian as a fascist government. So, if you think that the government in "Starship Troopers" is fascist because you saw the movie, read the book. It will dramatically open your eyes to what Heinlein was really getting at. If you think it's fascist and you have read the book, well I just don't understand what you consider fascist.
 
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MilesDei    RE:Starship Troopers - conscription   2/10/2004 4:38:54 PM
Hi mike_golf I can't argue with either of your statements. Everything I?ve ever read on the subject, as well as common sense, suggests that volunteers make far superior fighters than draftees. The problem with these web postings is that it?s hard to make yourself clear. My point is not that conscription is a good thing, but that it might be necessary at some point. Unlikely, of course, and I hope it is never necessary again. I do not find the idea of conscription inherently immoral, but I will admit that it can be used for political reasons or otherwise corrupted into a bad thing. Do you regard conscription as immoral because it jeopardizes other soldiers? lives and safety because a draftee may not be motivated and well-performing, or because it diminishes personal freedom? Of course, it is pretty easy for me to support conscription, however reluctantly, or at least the preservation of the capability, for several reasons. I am below the age limit. I don?t think it will be reinstated any time soon. I intend to join up anyway. In fact, I?ve meant to do ROTC since I was little, but, unlike those in and out types, stay in for a couple of years. That was a really interesting essay. Thanks for finding the correct link. The author was pretty confrontational (It takes spunk to say that a direct quote by the author, about his own book, is wrong).
 
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mike_golf    RE:Starship Troopers - conscription   2/23/2004 12:01:01 AM
Hey Miles, When I came of age the draft had ended and we were not, at the time, running the Selective Service at all. As I recall that didn't start up again until 1982 or so, by which time I was in the Army. However, I was a volunteer. So, on a practical note, I consider conscription a poor practice because conscripts don't generally make good soldiers. But, the moral/ethical side of it for me is the removal of personal liberty. Conscription is little better than slavery in my eyes. If you don't willing offer service to your country, then you shouldn't have to serve, period. Of course, you shouldn't get the benefits that service may bring either. Hopefully that clarifies how I feel. By the way, glad to hear that you want to serve. If you do go ROTC just remember to listen to your platoon sergeant :-).
 
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MilesDei    RE:Starship Troopers - conscription   3/2/2004 5:41:37 PM
Of course. The sergeants are the real backbone of the service.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Starship Troopers - sergeants and officers   3/4/2004 9:46:47 PM
heh, here's some more free, unsolicited advice for you. Officers should listen to their sergeants, but always remember that the bottom line is they are the commander. They aren't a puppet for the platoon sergeant. He's got a lot of experience, he may have, at times, led a platoon himself. But right now he isn't the boss, he isn't responsible for that platoon. You are. So, take command, get advice from your platoon sergeant, and then make the best decision you can. If you goof, don't be afraid to say so.
 
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Rubicon    RE:Starship Troopers - sergeants and officers   3/12/2004 11:04:45 PM
Hear hear.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Starship Troopers - federal service   3/14/2004 1:15:53 PM
I seem to recall that in the book, however, it is noted that franchise-granting non-military service remains inherently dangerous -- that, basically, a willingness to risk life and limb for the state is the mechanism by which full citizenship is gained regardless of specifics.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Starship Troopers - federal service   3/14/2004 4:55:03 PM
As I recall, the way it is put is that if actual military service is not what you are suited for or available then you will be put to work doing something that is necessary, needed, and generally speaking dangerous. In other words, all those jobs that need to get done but most people won't voluntarily do because they are dull, boring or inherently dangerous. The key concept is that a citizen should be willing to put the good of the state ahead of their own good.
 
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AchtungLagg    RE:Starship Troopers - federal service   3/16/2004 3:48:48 PM
Starship Troopers is my favorite book of all time, i have reread it many times at different points in my life and I find it to be excellent, as well as thought provoking. In addition, it is a big factor in nurturing my urge to enlist. HOwever, something we havent mentioned, what significance do the "bugs" in your opinions, have, to our world? They were conscripts, got slaughtered by the truckload, but basically kicked Earth's butt until late in the novel.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Starship Troopers - the bugs   3/16/2004 8:27:42 PM
The bugs were there to prove the point that mass conscript armies sent out as cannon fodder cannot, in the long run, defeat professional volunteer armies. In the context of the era the book was written, they represent the ComIntern, just as the Federation represents the Anglo powers.
 
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AchtungLagg    RE:Starship Troopers - the bugs   3/16/2004 9:28:22 PM
mike_golf....but doesnt Earth resort to conscription? Hm...
 
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