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Subject: time travel
andyf    8/3/2007 5:18:05 PM
If you could go back to a certain era in history and give the natives one invention < that you know how to build , obviously> who /when and what?
 
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TrustButVerify       8/16/2007 11:06:38 AM
Tough, tough decision. I'm partial to the Romans so I'd be inclined to help them out some time before the rise of Augustus. A few minutes of thinking have pared the possibilities down to-
1.) the Welsh longbow
2.) the stirrup
3.) movable type
4.) electricity.

I'd like to think that any of these were within the realm of what the Romans could do. Of those four, I think electricity would be the most helpful if it could be used to build telegraph networks. Telegraphs, and the rapid communications they allow, would have simplified the process of governing the proto-empire and possibly even prevented the immediate decline of Rome a few centuries later. Who knows- it might even have given democracy a chance.
The stirrup is probably a close second as it makes proper heavy cavalry possible, and this might have been a crucial advantage in those days.

Alternatively, if I were in this for personal power, black powder is a lead-pipe cinch. If I were trying to set myself up Lord Kalvan-style I would probably pick a corner of post-Roman Rhineland (or some other corner of Europe with competent metalworkers and a good work ethic) and start turning out muskets and cannon. Perhaps I could foster the invention of  rahmschnitzel as well.
 
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Armchair Private       8/16/2007 2:40:57 PM

I remember seeing on the History Channel about some Roman engineer who actually had the key to steam-powered mechanical energy at his fingertips, in the form of a flask of water, with two protruding angled pipes, suspended over a fire. When the water inside was hot enough, the venting steam spun the flask.

It was seen as little more than a curiosity.

Now imagine if he, or someone, made the connection that it could be scaled up and used to actually turn an axle connected to various mechanical devices.

Imagine the sight of steam-driven Roman warships (either paddle wheelers, or maybe some lucky git stumbles upon the idea of the propellor) sailing up against anyone else in the Mediterranean...

Imagine if the Roman Empire had started the Industrial Revolution...

 

...now fast forward to the Middle Ages...would we have generally progressed at the same pace scientifically as we have in the last 1/2 millennium?

What if Leonardo daVinci actually had access to internal combustion engines, even an early gas turbine, that might actually have allowed him to truly create the first flyable helicopter?

Or what if he had access to electricity, or composite material construction?

Could mankind then have stepped on the moon a century and a half ago then, or even earlier?

Interesting.

I remember reading (no idea where) that this same invention was presented to a Persian king (I thought it was Cyrus the Great, but 530bc from a quick google seems rather early?) with the inventor suggesting it could be used to power devices.

The Persian king took one look, gave the inventor a coin and told him to sod off. When asked why, the King said that with this device doing the work, the peasants would have nothing to fill their time but plotting, rebellion and strife....

Wise man!

 
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Armchair Private       8/16/2007 2:48:44 PM
For myself:

There have been three only three real revolutions in human history, the agricultural (planting crops); the information (printing press) and the industrial. (The internet - and the consequent democratisation of information may be a fourth)

All are dependent on the previous, I'd give the Romans (or whoever else) movable type  - as TBF says above.

I think they'd pretty soon invent the fires of industry themselves after that, and possibly avoid the European 'dark age' too.

Think of all those books, all that knowledge that wouldn't get burnt!

Man on the moon before 1500AD.

 
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TrustButVerify    Revolutions   8/19/2007 11:04:17 PM
Armchair Private,
Good points. A rather intelligent man once opined that the four most important human inventions were language, writing, movable type, and computers, in that order. I think he was right, but I happen to think that you're more right; without agriculture we'd still be stuck with cavorting Druids and dung for dinner, as Edmund Blackadder would say.

It seems to come down to what you're trying to accomplish with your continuum-meddling. If your goal is personal power, weapons are generally the key- although I could probably make a fortune in the trade by introducing better ships around 500 B.C. If, on the other hand, you want to preserve or improve a society, information technology is the way to go. In my case I view pre-Imperial Rome as a good thing worth preserving, and certainly better than the mass of bickering fiefdoms which would take its place for so many years.

Then again, when I ran the original question by a coworker, he answered that he'd give Damascus steel to the Scots, just because.

 
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doggtag       8/20/2007 8:04:47 AM

Then again, when I ran the original question by a coworker, he answered that he'd give Damascus steel to the Scots, just because.

Why not just go all out and give them the knowledge of steam power, as well as black powder?
Sometimes, a person going back in time to alter the future need only suggest minor things to past cultures, not actually bring future technologies back with them.
 
For instance, what if someone had inspired the ancient Greeks to adapt ship-mounted ballistas with tips containing a poultice of the greek fire compound (naptha?) ?
Effectively, that would've created the first true warhead-equipped (albeit unguided) anti-ship missile.
It would've been interesting to see how far they would have advanced (as far as various sizes and ranges) by the time ship-mounted cannon and culverin were introduced.
 
Or consider the so-called "Baghdad battery", one of the earliest attempts at human-generated electricity.
Perhaps made to do little more than electroplate cheaper metals to fool the unknowing into thinking they were real gold,
imagine if widespread electricity had been developed from it, way back then.
 
Or like I mentioned above with the "steam curiosity" created by the Roman engineer/philospher.
 
...or if someone managed to convince the great chinese fleet to continue sailing around Africa and up along the early European coast, could war have been provoked between Europe and china back then (perhaps with Africa being the primary battleground)?
 
...or what if the Central American tribes had learned to cultivate and refine hemp (and other, ahem, "medicinal" herbs), to the point instead of being wiped out by the Spanish Conquistadors, they instead managed to get them, and consequently much of Europe, addicted to marijuana, or even cocaine, centuries ago on a widespread scale...
 
...or convince the chinese fleet to sail east acroos the Pacific instead of west towards Africa. How different would the Central American tribes have been affected.
(...and imagine if the Aztecs, Maya, or Inca had cooperated with the early chinese, developed their own composite bows from those descended from the Mongols, and faced the Conquistadors with frog-poisoned tipped arrows that could pierce the Spanish armor at range (ranges beyond sword melee).
 
What could the US have looked like if the chinese fleet landed along the US western seaboard and started colonies.?Would there have been war with Europe then over who would rule North America?
Would the chinese have sided with or against the Native Americans?
(and would Mt Rusmore look different because of it?)
 
(Sometimes it might be interesting to see how much one could screw up history by means other than intentionally trying to jumpstart progress.)
 
What about giving rifling technology, percussion caps, and cartridge ammo manufacturing techniques to Napolean prior to his rampage across Europe and Russia?
 
Or if someone had convinced Custer to take along his 4 gatling guns and 20,000 rounds of ammo to Little Bighorn?
 
The different factions throughout history have written their own conclusions as to who were the madmen and who were the sane. If going back in time, which madmen do we side with, or do we seek to depose them alogether, but in the process rewriting history even more (uh oh, paradox time...).


 
 
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momus    Too much change   8/20/2007 11:40:14 AM
I have read many alternate histories and usually enjoy them. One problem authors have is to change too much. I greatly enjoyed "The Man In The High Castle" but it seemed to go too far in changing events. Some authors, Harry Turtledove comes to mind, keep writing their alternate histories to the point that extrapolation is gone and simple fantasy dictates plot line. Please note-I AM NOT CRITICISING IN ANY NEGATIVE WAY THE ABOVE. Sorry to shout, but please do not flame me over some imagined slight to a favorite author of yours. I enjoy the works I mentioned above and truly enjoy the 'what if only this had/hadn't happened' how would things be different mental exercise. When you look at history, it seems many great events pivot around a single small event. How different would WWI have been if Franz Josef had not been assassinated (I believe the war would still have happened). Without Fleming's penicillin, would the history of the 20th century have been greatly altered? If John Kennedy had not visited Dallas? These are always great speculations that demonstrate just how much happenstance is involved in creating our world. Good thread--please keep it up. For myself--teach Hippocrates modern first aid and asepsis (maybe some info from those Chinese bare-foot doctor manuals), or provide distillation of spirits to the Roman empire (just for s**ts and giggles) Dean
 
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doggtag    can't recall the title, but...   8/20/2007 11:54:51 AM
...I remember reading, back in the early 1990s,
a book where the author proposed an alternative history in which the South managed to retain power after the Civil War (I don't think it was an outright victory, insomuch as they forced the North to concede considerably) and allied with the Kaiser during WW1.
 
Anyone by chance recall the title?
I never did finish it.
 
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Ehran       8/20/2007 1:14:06 PM
sounds like one of harry turtledoves alternate histories.  if memory serves there was a trilogy about the civil war then another about ww1 with the confeds siding with britain and france and the north siding with the kaiser.  think there is a trilogy about ww2 but i'm not sure.
 
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Armchair Private    Maps   8/20/2007 3:15:21 PM
Give virtually anyone prior to 1500 a modern high resolution satellite imaged Globe, with a small red sticker saying "you are here."

Or give the mercator projection to those Chinese sailors.

I think worries about paradox are over done, Time Travel is either possible or it isn't. If we moved backwards through time we instantly create a paradox - you just changed the mass of the universe! Or rather the Mass/Energy of the Universe!

This may or may not be a problem but what's certain is that if it is then possible to travel forwards again to your 'own' time, the Universe you arrive at will not be the Universe you left, its past will have been subject to your mass/energy in an uncountable number of ways, even presuming that you don't kill your Great Grand Father's favourite dog or whatever...

Funnily enough, I don't think this would affect the "you" that did the time travelling, you would have taken yourself out of the Universe that was affected, and would be part of a new continuity - no reason to assume that the 'dead' Universe you came from would have any hold over you, even if you killed your dad in your 'new' old universe.*

Clear?

*Comments from passing Theoretical Physicists will be ignored, and will likely lead to responses like "get a real job four eyes" etc.
 
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TrustButVerify       8/20/2007 3:19:00 PM
You're both referring to the How Few Remain (aka "The Great War") continuum. Britain and France side with the Rebs, sorry, Confederates and the Union allies with Germany. I've only just finished the first books, so it'll be a while before I get to the next one, but I'm looking forward to it. Turtledove is the man at that stuff.
Anyway
The opening question leaves so much room to freeform it. Want to enhance the trading power of the Normans? Give them better shipping ahead of the Dutch. Want to avert the Dark Ages? Bolster the Roman empire or avert the Peloponnesian Wars. Personal power? Weapons and engineering. The list goes on. For my part, I am a partisan for my own point-of-view that the West has the best thing going, between the Greeks and the Romans, and this was where things could really be helped along.
So where does it go from here? I'll toss out a few scenarios and see if anyone bites. Given the starting statement that you can take one invention with you, how would you-
-Preserve the Greeks?
-Speed up the Renaissance?
-Prevent, or lessen the impact of, WWI?
-Jump-start the age of exploration?
...just a few for your consideration.
 
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