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Subject: time travel
andyf    8/3/2007 5:18:05 PM
If you could go back to a certain era in history and give the natives one invention < that you know how to build , obviously>
who /when and what?

 
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momus    Too much change   8/20/2007 11:40:14 AM
I have read many alternate histories and usually enjoy them. One problem authors have is to change too much. I greatly enjoyed "The Man In The High Castle" but it seemed to go too far in changing events. Some authors, Harry Turtledove comes to mind, keep writing their alternate histories to the point that extrapolation is gone and simple fantasy dictates plot line. Please note-I AM NOT CRITICISING IN ANY NEGATIVE WAY THE ABOVE. Sorry to shout, but please do not flame me over some imagined slight to a favorite author of yours. I enjoy the works I mentioned above and truly enjoy the 'what if only this had/hadn't happened' how would things be different mental exercise. When you look at history, it seems many great events pivot around a single small event. How different would WWI have been if Franz Josef had not been assassinated (I believe the war would still have happened). Without Fleming's penicillin, would the history of the 20th century have been greatly altered? If John Kennedy had not visited Dallas? These are always great speculations that demonstrate just how much happenstance is involved in creating our world. Good thread--please keep it up. For myself--teach Hippocrates modern first aid and asepsis (maybe some info from those Chinese bare-foot doctor manuals), or provide distillation of spirits to the Roman empire (just for s**ts and giggles) Dean
 
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doggtag    can't recall the title, but...   8/20/2007 11:54:51 AM
...I remember reading, back in the early 1990s,
a book where the author proposed an alternative history in which the South managed to retain power after the Civil War (I don't think it was an outright victory, insomuch as they forced the North to concede considerably) and allied with the Kaiser during WW1.
 
Anyone by chance recall the title?
I never did finish it.
 
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Ehran       8/20/2007 1:14:06 PM
sounds like one of harry turtledoves alternate histories.  if memory serves there was a trilogy about the civil war then another about ww1 with the confeds siding with britain and france and the north siding with the kaiser.  think there is a trilogy about ww2 but i'm not sure.
 
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Armchair Private    Maps   8/20/2007 3:15:21 PM
Give virtually anyone prior to 1500 a modern high resolution satellite imaged Globe, with a small red sticker saying "you are here."

Or give the mercator projection to those Chinese sailors.

I think worries about paradox are over done, Time Travel is either possible or it isn't. If we moved backwards through time we instantly create a paradox - you just changed the mass of the universe! Or rather the Mass/Energy of the Universe!

This may or may not be a problem but what's certain is that if it is then possible to travel forwards again to your 'own' time, the Universe you arrive at will not be the Universe you left, its past will have been subject to your mass/energy in an uncountable number of ways, even presuming that you don't kill your Great Grand Father's favourite dog or whatever...

Funnily enough, I don't think this would affect the "you" that did the time travelling, you would have taken yourself out of the Universe that was affected, and would be part of a new continuity - no reason to assume that the 'dead' Universe you came from would have any hold over you, even if you killed your dad in your 'new' old universe.*

Clear?

*Comments from passing Theoretical Physicists will be ignored, and will likely lead to responses like "get a real job four eyes" etc.
 
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TrustButVerify       8/20/2007 3:19:00 PM
You're both referring to the How Few Remain (aka "The Great War") continuum. Britain and France side with the Rebs, sorry, Confederates and the Union allies with Germany. I've only just finished the first books, so it'll be a while before I get to the next one, but I'm looking forward to it. Turtledove is the man at that stuff.
Anyway
The opening question leaves so much room to freeform it. Want to enhance the trading power of the Normans? Give them better shipping ahead of the Dutch. Want to avert the Dark Ages? Bolster the Roman empire or avert the Peloponnesian Wars. Personal power? Weapons and engineering. The list goes on. For my part, I am a partisan for my own point-of-view that the West has the best thing going, between the Greeks and the Romans, and this was where things could really be helped along.
So where does it go from here? I'll toss out a few scenarios and see if anyone bites. Given the starting statement that you can take one invention with you, how would you-
-Preserve the Greeks?
-Speed up the Renaissance?
-Prevent, or lessen the impact of, WWI?
-Jump-start the age of exploration?
...just a few for your consideration.
 
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Jeff_F_F       8/20/2007 3:59:38 PM

Armchair Private,
Good points. A rather intelligent man once opined that the four most important human inventions were language, writing, movable type, and computers, in that order. I think he was right, but I happen to think that you're more right; without agriculture we'd still be stuck with cavorting Druids and dung for dinner, as Edmund Blackadder would say.

It seems to come down to what you're trying to accomplish with your continuum-meddling. If your goal is personal power, weapons are generally the key- although I could probably make a fortune in the trade by introducing better ships around 500 B.C. If, on the other hand, you want to preserve or improve a society, information technology is the way to go. In my case I view pre-Imperial Rome as a good thing worth preserving, and certainly better than the mass of bickering fiefdoms which would take its place for so many years.

Then again, when I ran the original question by a coworker, he answered that he'd give Damascus steel to the Scots, just because.


Worse than that, without agriculture you don't even have druids. A very good book on this is "Guns, Germs and Steel". Pre agricultural cultures almost never have specialists such as druids, the exceptions would be those such as some plains indians that were nomadic but were able to gain many of the benefits of agriculture by following huge buffalo herds.
 
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Jeff_F_F       8/20/2007 4:06:11 PM

...or what if the Central American tribes had learned to cultivate and refine hemp (and other, ahem, "medicinal" herbs), to the point instead of being wiped out by the Spanish Conquistadors, they instead managed to get them, and consequently much of Europe, addicted to marijuana, or even cocaine, centuries ago on a widespread scale...
You just can't argue with disease : all that the conquistadors had to do was walk through an area and sneeze on people and within a few years 95% of the population was gone. Poof.
Cocaine requires not just growing but sophisticated processing to concentrate the extracts.

 
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doggtag       8/20/2007 4:16:01 PM




...or what if the Central American tribes had learned to cultivate and refine hemp (and other, ahem, "medicinal" herbs), to the point instead of being wiped out by the Spanish Conquistadors, they instead managed to get them, and consequently much of Europe, addicted to marijuana, or even cocaine, centuries ago on a widespread scale...


You just can't argue with disease : all that the conquistadors had to do was walk through an area and sneeze on people and within a few years 95% of the population was gone. Poof.

Cocaine requires not just growing but sophisticated processing to concentrate the extracts.



If the central American tribes worked gold (albeit limited smeltering) and had crude forms of glass, then teaching them the chemistry and distillations to extract cocaine shouldn't have been too much an issue.
Maintaining purity and potency, without advanced chemistry and more modern scientific instruments, may prove the difficult part.
 
...but after all, if I'm going back in time and taking things with me (knowledge, machines, tools, etc)...
 
-----------
 
How about this one: introduce black powder and firearms (including cannon) manufacture to a pre-1000 AD Europe, and see just how long the "novelty" of  castles and other walled fortifications lasts.
 
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buzzard       8/20/2007 5:16:24 PM
Well there is a Turdledove book called Guns of the South, but it doesn't extend much past the end of the civil war. In that book some time travellers give the South a bunch of AK-47s, and as one would expect they win the war handily. The North, after losing, eventually makes fair mockups of captured ones and conquers Canada. Also the slaves get freed anyway since R.E. Lee realized that they were an economic detriment.It might be that Turdledove wrote a sequel which covers what you are talking about.

buzzard

 
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Jeff_F_F    Interesting scenarios...   8/20/2007 7:21:16 PM
I'm not so sure that going back in time with anything short of modern technology gives you enough of an edge to just walk in and act like you own the place. Until you get to repeating rifles, firearms aren't actually all that powerful in and of themselves. A longbow had better range and accuracy than early muskets, and a better rate of fire as well. The penetration of a musket ball wasn't all that much better than an armor-piercing arrow either, and many suits of armor both in Europe and Japan were shot by a musket, the charachteristic circular indentation in the breastplate was proof of their quality. But training a bowman takes years, and crafting bows is often time consuming as well. The power of early firearms was that they made relatively untrained conscripts in huge groups quite powerful. However to produce such a mass of armed conscripts you need industrialization. The two go hand in hand. The pyrotechnic effects of potassium nitrate had been known for centuries, possibly a millenium or more before gunpowder become a common weapon. Part of the reason was the need for the formula to mature, but a lot of it was simply that manufacturing a gun barrel is not an easy task, even on a small scale basis. Industrial manufacturing of such devices would be possible only with a lot of investement of time and effort. Not impossible, but definitely difficult and very time consuming. Possibly too much for a single human lifetime.
 
 
 
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TrustButVerify       8/21/2007 5:06:51 PM
Good points, Jeff_F_F, and I agree around 90%. (You're not the first to make that point about gunpowder trumping longbowmen because it makes a company of troops easier to put together.) Nevertheless there are certain advances which aren't really contingent on concurrent technologies, and I say this as a big fan of James Burke. Stirrups, for one; moveable type, too. I'm no smith but it seems that the Europeans had the metalworking skills ages before Gutenberg. One which is frequently overlooked is the mouldboard plow; introducing this or the three-field system earlier would give any society a big agricultural boost. Better agriculture is helpful in all sorts of ways- less disease, bigger population, more specialized tradesmen, etc.

I agree, on the other hand, that setting yourself up in a position of power, or wealth, would be much more difficult. We bandy gunpowder about a great deal, and I still think there's something to it. Leaving man-portable firearms aside, how about cannon? The early ones were pretty lousy in most respects but nevertheless their mere appearance could compel a town to surrender, and as another post pointed out you could change the face of European siege warfare if you did things right. So, my sophomoric and under-baked plan for personal aggrandizement still remains giving gunpowder to some Rhinelander lord (my execrable Pfalz Deutsch might even be helpful), allowing him to carve out a good kingdom, and then subverting and overthrowing said lord in the tradition of Carnahan and Dravitt. But I digress; my point is that I still believe certain technological advances could significantly alter the course of history. If you can show me that mouldboards, horse collars, paper, bronze cannon, stirrups, etc. were technologically unfeasible in (arbitrarily) 600 AD, I'll concede the point and retire to my lair.
 
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andyf       8/21/2007 5:51:39 PM
the refining cocaine thing isnt so hard..
just an acid- base extraction
 
might even be possible to skip gunpowder and go straight to HE
 
give the romans big ballista bolts with a guncotton warhead?
 
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TrustButVerify       8/21/2007 8:24:35 PM

might even be possible to skip gunpowder and go straight to HE

give the romans big ballista bolts with a guncotton warhead?



IANC* but I don't know that it would be possible given the initial scenario of only bringing one advance. Where are you going to synthesize the nitric acid? That's the problem with a lot of advances- you can't build most cool stuff without lots of supporting technology, as Jeff_F_F pointed out earlier. Steam power is of limited use unless you've got the metallurgy to build high-pressure components, etc. Hence the utility of simple, straightforward technologies and techniques. Perhaps the Romans would do well if they glommed on to the concept of combined arms, for instance.

*I Ain't No Chemist
 
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Treadgar    Combined arms & Romans   8/25/2007 10:31:19 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by combined arms and the Romans. The Romans were quick to plug in military elements of subjugated peoples into the legions. Roman cavalry often consisted of foreign troops, also there were archers, and others. Think also about Hannibal's elephants, wouldn't that be another example of combined arms from those times?  

I agree that it would be difficult to import some technologies back in time. All the stuff we have needs too much specialized support. If I could travel back with a machine gun, my advantage in a fight would last only as long as I had bullets to fire. I still like the idea of bringing back some type of concept, one that could jump start technological innovation before it actually ocurred.


Treadgar
 
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