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Subject: Laser rifles
Miles    3/14/2007 7:19:19 PM
How would it be possible to have laser guns in the future?
 
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flamingknives       10/23/2007 6:05:12 PM
If you've got an electromagnetic field strong enough to hold high-pressure, superheated medium (could be anything, really, but if you have that much energy knocking about it will most likely be a plasma) then I would have thought that the EM field would be amply strong enough to stop any KE round, so filling it full of superheated medium seems a bit redundant.
 
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WarNerd       10/24/2007 2:30:47 AM
This article link about the best technical information I could find about plasma windows.  It's from May 1998, but current articles indicate that the first applications are just preparing for market.  The slow speed of innovation would indicate substantial problems with scaling the technology up.
 
The window in the article used 5kW (100V x 50A) of power for a 2.93mm diameter window, or about 60kW/cm².
 
This power level seems impractical for armor.
 
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andyf       10/24/2007 11:08:04 AM
speed of heat?
 I like the term, sounds good
it should be the average molecular velocity in the medium.
so if your plasma is at silly degrees C, then its going to be a big number
 
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ker       10/24/2007 6:12:29 PM
"How would it be possible to have laser guns in the future?"
 
Laser weapon?  Yes.
Laser gun?  No need.
 
Gun(KE) guns are good.  If you need a preformance increase the first place to go is improved propelents that maintain cylender presure longer and in so doing impart more energy into the projectial with the same tube.  It's like putting rocket fuel in rater than explocives.  Then you can use electrothurmal tec to shoot your electricity throught the propelent to both increase the presure and to get good control of how much presure you have when the projectial is at any given point in the tube.  Some people like railguns.
 
You can also make projectiles that give you a greator effect on target with the same weapon and very simeler ammo.  The idea is to do less tisue damage near the impact site and get the energy around in the body.  It is not how big a hole you tear in a membrain in the body but how many membrains you tear holes in.  Simple example is a subcaliber projectile that has low drag in the air.  When it impacts the nose fishhooks.  It contiues to travle for a long distance because the drag is not increased that much but it travles in a chaotic curve.  It could go in the arm and come out the leg.  If you want more predictability put 12 tunstin needles with triangle crosssections and bends at the front end together to make your bullet.  Then have them wraped in a matieeal that give you gas seal and riffling contact in the tube/barrle.  It also gives you the balistice before impact or going throuch light folage or canvas tents.  The impact with a body shaters the outside of the bullet and frees the needles. 
 
Blowgun darts are a mature tec that could be combined with paintball gun tec and s ammo feed system.  Then you just need to pick your pharmasutical payload.  Should I set my weapon to sleepy or LSD trip?  This weapon could be slung under a normal gun that could shoot throught doors or car windows.
 
So if you want more effect on target you can make much smaller changes than going to lazers.
 
Lower energy lazers that effect cameras and eyes are out there now. 
 
Anyone who wants a talk on sound weapons for a novle can talk to me for a consulting fee.
 
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Shooter2K       10/25/2007 12:59:23 AM
The speed of heat has two meanings;
1. **** fast in a jet with after burners lit and 2. The speed of brownian motion of indavidual atoms in a fluid. (It is one of those very technical and secrit terms only used by the geekiest of super nerds to other geeks and some of the more brilliant nerds inside the scientific comunity!)
 
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Asymmetric       10/28/2007 12:21:13 PM

The speed of heat has two meanings;

1. **** fast in a jet with after burners lit and 2. The speed of brownian motion of indavidual atoms in a fluid. (It is one of those very technical and secrit terms only used by the geekiest of super nerds to other geeks and some of the more brilliant nerds inside the scientific comunity!)

 
Ah, the square root of ((Cp/Cv)*R*T)/M) derived from the ideal gas law for the speed of heat/sound.

Unfortunately while this holds true for ideal gas?s and while it is true for low density plasma's that behave similar to gases as you used in your example, it is not true for high pressure plasma's that behave more akin to a fluid (like the sun's core in my example). The answer in those extreme situations is best described as complicated

 
 
 
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Asymmetric       10/28/2007 12:23:12 PM

This article link about the best technical information I could find about plasma windows.  It's from May 1998, but current articles indicate that the first applications are just preparing for market.  The slow speed of innovation would indicate substantial problems with scaling the technology up.

 

The window in the article used 5kW (100V x 50A) of power for a 2.93mm diameter window, or about 60kW/cm².

 

This power level seems impractical for armor.


 

True, that there energy requirement is exceptionally high for the purposes of armour.

However allow me to hypothesize for a moment. Let us imagine a high powered laser used for point defence on a nuclear warship. Due to the nature of this laser being the last line of defence against incoming missiles its power out put is rather high. Due to this laser's power output it is physically rather large and the military has decided not to place any additional weight upon it due to the distorting effects this would have on the highly sensitive optics. This creates an interesting problem that the laser is now  unarmoured and even small hail storm, could damage the weapon. A light plasma field is placed round portions of the laser allowing it to fire out and offering modest protection against small shrapnel, hail, salt water, etc? This example may prove unfeasible/unneeded but I?m merely pontificating.


 
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Asymmetric       10/28/2007 12:24:54 PM

If you've got an electromagnetic field strong enough to hold high-pressure, superheated medium (could be anything, really, but if you have that much energy knocking about it will most likely be a plasma) then I would have thought that the EM field would be amply strong enough to stop any KE round, so filling it full of superheated medium seems a bit redundant.


Presumably the incoming projectiles charge distribution will be 0 with a rigid structure of electrons, in which case no EM force will be able to interact with it, for instance: A lump of granite.

Since this is a sci-fi forum if my memory serves me right, the Culture, in I M Banks novels, warships main armaments are EM fields which they can manipulate locally to the point of being able to separate individual electrons from atoms in combat.

 
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Asymmetric       10/28/2007 12:31:55 PM
God dam this sites random changing of every other comma into a question mark.
 
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WarNerd       10/28/2007 1:50:20 PM

God dam this sites random changing of every other comma into a question mark.


Might be your computer.
I don't see any question marks in your last post.
 
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WarNerd       10/28/2007 3:21:50 PM

 
Ah, the square root of ((Cp/Cv)*R*T)/M) derived from the ideal gas law for the speed of heat/sound.

Unfortunately while this holds true for ideal gas?s and while it is true for low density plasma's that behave similar to gases as you used in your example, it is not true for high pressure plasma's that behave more akin to a fluid (like the sun's core in my example). The answer in those extreme situations is best described as complicated

 

What most people do not understand is that Cp and Cv are not constants but ratios of other properties which for non-ideal gases are functions of temperature and pressure.
Other items that need to be considered are:
 
The maximum speed that a plasma can expand at is limited by the average velocity of the particles in it, which is solely a function of temperature.
 
The Joule-Thompson effects dictates that any expansion driven by pressure will cause the plasma to cool as it expands.
 
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WarNerd       10/28/2007 3:42:57 PM


However allow me to hypothesize for a moment. Let us imagine a high powered laser used for point defense on a nuclear warship. Due to the nature of this laser being the last line of defense against incoming missiles its power out put is rather high. Due to this laser's power output it is physically rather large and the military has decided not to place any additional weight upon it due to the distorting effects this would have on the highly sensitive optics. This creates an interesting problem that the laser is now  unarmored and even small hail storm, could damage the weapon. A light plasma field is placed round portions of the laser allowing it to fire out and offering modest protection against small shrapnel, hail, salt water, etc? This example may prove unfeasible/unneeded but I?m merely pontificating.


Interesting, I had not even considered the effect of rain on plasma armor.  It should be spectacular, possibly on a par with grade B movie self destructs.
 
There is no reason that the exterior of a HEL cannot be adequately weather protected.  Armoring a device that has to shift it's aim point quickly and precisely is another matter.
 
Where the plasma window will likely have a significant impact is on the emissions window.  Not as armor, but as a non-material pressure seal.  This is a major problem/limitation currently.
 
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LouiesDemise       10/28/2007 8:54:00 PM
Miles Said:
What about using mirrors as a shield to deflect the lasers? Like the soldiers wear mirror armor for protection.

I believe any small unit in the future who is lucky enough to have an energy weapon of any kind will have a nice complement of projectile weapons to shatter any mirror armor.

Field robots might make energy weapons possible in the future by carrying the power supply for the units.  All the Plasma gunner will need is an extension cord to the M.U.L.E.

Of course if they do give off a lot of heat, could a modified Stinger type missile fired over the area seek out such a weapon making it a liability to the unit?  I am sure the early machine guns were looked at as a liability too (maintenance, mobility and cooling being an issue back then too).
-nick

 
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Asymmetric       10/28/2007 9:11:25 PM




 

Ah, the square root of ((Cp/Cv)*R*T)/M) derived from the ideal gas law for the speed of heat/sound.



Unfortunately while this holds true for ideal gas?s and while it is true for low density plasma's that behave similar to gases as you used in your example, it is not true for high pressure plasma's that behave more akin to a fluid (like the sun's core in my example). The answer in those extreme situations is best described as complicated



 



What most people do not understand is that Cp and Cv are not constants but ratios of other properties which for non-ideal gases are functions of temperature and pressure.

Other items that need to be considered are:

 


The maximum speed that a plasma can expand at is limited by the average velocity of the particles in it, which is solely a function of temperature.

 

The Joule-Thompson effects dictates that any expansion driven by pressure will cause the plasma to cool as it expands.


 

Quite so. Thankfully the plasma in this case if confined to a specific volume by an exceptionally strong EM force, so the talk of dissipation is largely a moot point.

 
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Asymmetric       10/28/2007 9:16:55 PM





However allow me to hypothesize for a moment. Let us imagine a high powered laser used for point defense on a nuclear warship. Due to the nature of this laser being the last line of defense against incoming missiles its power out put is rather high. Due to this laser's power output it is physically rather large and the military has decided not to place any additional weight upon it due to the distorting effects this would have on the highly sensitive optics. This creates an interesting problem that the laser is now  unarmored and even small hail storm, could damage the weapon. A light plasma field is placed round portions of the laser allowing it to fire out and offering modest protection against small shrapnel, hail, salt water, etc? This example may prove unfeasible/unneeded but I?m merely pontificating.




Interesting, I had not even considered the effect of rain on plasma armor.  It should be spectacular, possibly on a par with grade B movie self destructs.

 

There is no reason that the exterior of a HEL cannot be adequately weather protected.  Armoring a device that has to shift it's aim point quickly and precisely is another matter.

 

Where the plasma window will likely have a significant impact is on the emissions window.  Not as armor, but as a non-material pressure seal.  This is a major problem/limitation currently.

 
I am sure it would be suitable impressive in a thunderstorm.

It merely strikes me as an elegant solution to the compounding issue of increasing the weight of large optical devices causing distortions. As you say it is at the emissions point the plasma window?s unique properties will shine.


 
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