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Subject: Laser rifles
Miles    3/14/2007 7:19:19 PM
How would it be possible to have laser guns in the future?
 
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Asymmetric       10/19/2007 1:15:14 AM
 

I should point out I am NOT CLAIMING plasma windows will make KE rounds redundant just that photon based weapons do not have to consider them.
 
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Miles       10/19/2007 3:29:39 PM
What other ideas you got? Make a list of all the things you know. I'm just brain storming here to pick an interesting type of weapon.
 
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Miles       10/19/2007 3:36:35 PM
What about using mirrors as a shield to deflect the lasers? Like the soldiers wear mirror armor for protection.
 
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Shooter2K       10/19/2007 10:58:47 PM




Plasma weapons sound great, but are actualy very silly? The idea that the plasma could be at multi-million degree temperatures sounds neet, but the reallity of it is quite different!



The fact is that the hotter the plasma for any given containment field strength, the less dence it is! That means that the total energy contained in it is fixed aqnd is ALL WAYS some minor fraction of the field strength! So, if you put a thousand mega-joules into the containment field, or magnetic "Bottle" tha holds it in, the total energy of the plasma is 10-11 Mega-joules? Sort of a waist of power is it not?



Secondly, once you let it out of the Bottle, it disipates at whatever the speed of sound is at that temperature and dencity! Since the Mach number is more related to temperature than density, at those levels, it evaporates all most instantly!



Lastly, the energy dencity is very low. That is something on the order of one gram per cubic meter at 10,000 degrees Kelvin for a few thousand joules of total energy dispersed into a cloud one cubic meter in volume? That dose not sound like it would melt an incomming 48 kilogram 155MM Howitzer shell before it hits you between the eyes to me?




You are presuming this is happening in a non-inertial reference frame with Earth like gravitational fields.

 

In a plasma window the volume and the mass is kept constant, the average density does not decrease. It becomes increasingly more vicousous the more energy you place into the field as the local particles velocities increase within the window. It will depend on the gas used what energy density you will observe.


No, I am not presuming anything. Plasma is a gas composed of very high temperature charged IONs that repell each other. When the containmet field is broken or turned off, it dissipates at the speed of sound. Because the density of the gas is so low, it sounds more like a fire cracker going off than a hand grenade. In iether case, there is not enough energy pressent to damage anything! The total energy of one gram of plasma at 1,000,000 degrees Kelvin is? But certainly not nearly enough to melt anything bigger than a ping pong ball before it dissipates! Possably not even that! Remember that the standard density of air at sea level is over 1,200 grams per cubic meter and the dencity of plasma is probably less than ONE GRAM per cubic meter? And it will disperse! That a shell with half and inch of nodular iron case is about to hit your plasma window does not bother the plasma one iota! The shell just travels threw the almost perfect vacume that the plasma represents and goes about it's buisness! BANG! Just as a thought, and some bright chap with the requisite math skills can prove this, I belive a 155 howitzer shell could sit in a plasma chamber for ever and never be affected because there would not be enough total heat energy in that one cubic meter of plasma to raise the 48 kilos of shell high enough to make it warm to the touch let alone make it explode!
 
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Asymmetric       10/20/2007 5:00:23 AM








Plasma weapons sound great, but are actualy very silly? The idea that the plasma could be at multi-million degree temperatures sounds neet, but the reallity of it is quite different!





The fact is that the hotter the plasma for any given containment field strength, the less dence it is! That means that the total energy contained in it is fixed aqnd is ALL WAYS some minor fraction of the field strength! So, if you put a thousand mega-joules into the containment field, or magnetic "Bottle" tha holds it in, the total energy of the plasma is 10-11 Mega-joules? Sort of a waist of power is it not?





Secondly, once you let it out of the Bottle, it disipates at whatever the speed of sound is at that temperature and dencity! Since the Mach number is more related to temperature than density, at those levels, it evaporates all most instantly!





Lastly, the energy dencity is very low. That is something on the order of one gram per cubic meter at 10,000 degrees Kelvin for a few thousand joules of total energy dispersed into a cloud one cubic meter in volume? That dose not sound like it would melt an incomming 48 kilogram 155MM Howitzer shell before it hits you between the eyes to me?







You are presuming this is happening in a non-inertial reference frame with Earth like gravitational fields.



 



In a plasma window the volume and the mass is kept constant, the average density does not decrease. It becomes increasingly more vicousous the more energy you place into the field as the local particles velocities increase within the window. It will depend on the gas used what energy density you will observe.




No, I am not presuming anything. Plasma is a gas composed of very high temperature charged IONs that repell each other. When the containmet field is broken or turned off, it dissipates at the speed of sound. Because the density of the gas is so low, it sounds more like a fire cracker going off than a hand grenade. In iether case, there is not enough energy pressent to damage anything! The total energy of one gram of plasma at 1,000,000 degrees Kelvin is? But certainly not nearly enough to melt anything bigger than a ping pong ball before it dissipates! Possably not even that! Remember that the standard density of air at sea level is over 1,200 grams per cubic meter and the dencity of plasma is probably less than ONE GRAM per cubic meter? And it will disperse! That a shell with half and inch of nodular iron case is about to hit your plasma window does not bother the plasma one iota! The shell just travels threw the almost perfect vacume that the plasma represents and goes about it's buisness! BANG! Just as a thought, and some bright chap with the requisite math skills can prove this, I belive a 155 howitzer shell could sit in a plasma chamber for ever and never be affected because there would not be enough total heat energy in that one cubic meter of plasma to raise the 48 kilos of shell high enough to make it warm to the touch let alone make it explode!


 

You can massively increase the density of the plasma by increasing the pressure the electromagentic field exerts upon the plasma, it can be made denser than steel. Are you suggesting that the plasma nuclear core of the sun (which is denser than steel) would be unable to damage a howitzer round? Not all plasma fields will dissipate when under extreme force, the electromagnetic force is 10^36 times greater than gravity that is why people can try to produce similar condition in labs for civilian fusion power. Hell at 10 million Kelvin quantum tunnelling effects should start being observed and the plasma might undergo nuclear fusion.

There are other more traditional ways of generating extreme heat that photons based weapons do not have to worry about.


 
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Asymmetric       10/20/2007 6:07:39 AM








Plasma weapons sound great, but are actualy very silly? The idea that the plasma could be at multi-million degree temperatures sounds neet, but the reallity of it is quite different!





The fact is that the hotter the plasma for any given containment field strength, the less dence it is! That means that the total energy contained in it is fixed aqnd is ALL WAYS some minor fraction of the field strength! So, if you put a thousand mega-joules into the containment field, or magnetic "Bottle" tha holds it in, the total energy of the plasma is 10-11 Mega-joules? Sort of a waist of power is it not?





Secondly, once you let it out of the Bottle, it disipates at whatever the speed of sound is at that temperature and dencity! Since the Mach number is more related to temperature than density, at those levels, it evaporates all most instantly!





Lastly, the energy dencity is very low. That is something on the order of one gram per cubic meter at 10,000 degrees Kelvin for a few thousand joules of total energy dispersed into a cloud one cubic meter in volume? That dose not sound like it would melt an incomming 48 kilogram 155MM Howitzer shell before it hits you between the eyes to me?







You are presuming this is happening in a non-inertial reference frame with Earth like gravitational fields.



 



In a plasma window the volume and the mass is kept constant, the average density does not decrease. It becomes increasingly more vicousous the more energy you place into the field as the local particles velocities increase within the window. It will depend on the gas used what energy density you will observe.




No, I am not presuming anything. Plasma is a gas composed of very high temperature charged IONs that repell each other. When the containmet field is broken or turned off, it dissipates at the speed of sound. Because the density of the gas is so low, it sounds more like a fire cracker going off than a hand grenade. In iether case, there is not enough energy pressent to damage anything! The total energy of one gram of plasma at 1,000,000 degrees Kelvin is? But certainly not nearly enough to melt anything bigger than a ping pong ball before it dissipates! Possably not even that! Remember that the standard density of air at sea level is over 1,200 grams per cubic meter and the dencity of plasma is probably less than ONE GRAM per cubic meter? And it will disperse! That a shell with half and inch of nodular iron case is about to hit your plasma window does not bother the plasma one iota! The shell just travels threw the almost perfect vacume that the plasma represents and goes about it's buisness! BANG! Just as a thought, and some bright chap with the requisite math skills can prove this, I belive a 155 howitzer shell could sit in a plasma chamber for ever and never be affected because there would not be enough total heat energy in that one cubic meter of plasma to raise the 48 kilos of shell high enough to make it warm to the touch let alone make it explode!


Just 2 more things:
"The total energy of one gram of plasma at 1,000,000 degrees Kelvin is?"
 
Pressure and the element used for its latent heat capacity are also variables that would need to be specified.
 
"When the containmet field is broken or turned off, it dissipates at the speed of sound."
 
Can I ask for a reference or link for this? I would like to read how it is derived. My gut reaction is just to say "so what? A) it won't break unless targeted, which is something a photon based weapon would not have to do and B) the speed of sound in a vacuum is 0 m/s"
 
 
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Miles       10/20/2007 2:36:21 PM
What about body armor against lasers and plasma?
 
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andyf       10/20/2007 3:14:26 PM
massive input of energy?
the body armour explodes.
effects similar to a thunderflash in your pocket I should think
<m80>
 
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Shooter2K    Plasma Window?   10/22/2007 11:54:51 PM
If the windo is in space, then rupturing the "window" would let the Plasma escape at the speed of heat into the vacume! I was reffering to the effect in an atmosphere. In iether case the total energy in the plasma is insignificant! One gram of any eliment, is still only one gram! IF it is that much! Could be 1/100th of a gram? You pick any eliment you like and then post the answer for all to see!
 
The other side of this is using the plasma window as some sort of a shield against radiation weapon of some sort? The problem with using plasma to shield something is silly because there is so little energy there to use! The dencity of the gas is so low that adding more energy will not change the state and the opaiqueness would not change? It is the transition between normal and plasma that makes it work, Starting as plasma is a looser.
 
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Asymmetric    Pressure.   10/23/2007 4:56:13 AM

If the windo is in space, then rupturing the "window" would let the Plasma escape at the speed of heat into the vacume! I was reffering to the effect in an atmosphere. In iether case the total energy in the plasma is insignificant! One gram of any eliment, is still only one gram! IF it is that much! Could be 1/100th of a gram? You pick any eliment you like and then post the answer for all to see!
Do I also get to pick whatever pressure I want? Because if I do I'm going to use the inner core of the sun at approximately 100,000,000,000 atmospheres. In fact its stupid to even bother we're talking about matter with  density 160g/cm^3 (tens times that of lead) at 15 million kelvin. Plasma doesn't hace to be low density.
 
I was also interested in a link to see how it wa derived.
The other side of this is using the plasma window as some sort of a shield against radiation weapon of some sort? The problem with using plasma to shield something is silly because there is so little energy there to use! The dencity of the gas is so low that adding more energy will not change the state and the opaiqueness would not change? It is the transition between normal and plasma that makes it work, Starting as plasma is a looser.

I don?t know where you got the idea that plasma has to be low density in all circumstances. Sure its low density for the purposes of electron welding because currently the most common job for plasma is to separate 1 atmosphere from a vacuum. It doesn?t have to be low density, the sun isn?t. If that were the case every star in the universe wouldn?t undergo nuclear fusion. 99.9% of the visible universe is plasma and a shitload of it is in high density objects. I will say it again the, plasma core of the sun is much denser than steel.

If I take a balloon full of ions and then decide to take a stroll along the surface of a neutron star that balloon is going to get very, very, very flat and its density is going to increase massively. Since all the particles are ions you can stimulate these effects (although we can?t simulate anything like a neutron star) using electromagnetic fields.

The plasma will not behave like a low density gas but similar to a high density liquid such as mercury. It will not be one gram if weaponised. It will vary from a few kilograms to several thousand tonnes for the purposes of defence depending on the width and strength of the plasma field.
 
Pressure, pressure, pressure...
 
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andyf       10/23/2007 11:29:39 AM
thats a hell of a lot of energy
 
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Ehran       10/23/2007 1:05:43 PM

What about using mirrors as a shield to deflect the lasers? Like the soldiers wear mirror armor for protection.



even if you had optically perfect mirrors the soldier would be rather noticeable on the battlefield and as soon as the optical mirrors pick up any dirt etc their protection fails.  better to go for some manner of ablative or absorptive surface. 
 
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Ehran       10/23/2007 1:10:44 PM
If the windo is in space, then rupturing the "window" would let the Plasma escape at the speed of heat into the vacume!
 
are you sure this is what you were trying to say?  if so what is the speed of heat in a vacuum?
 
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Asymmetric       10/23/2007 3:11:25 PM

If the windo is in space, then rupturing the "window" would let the Plasma escape at the speed of heat into the vacume!

 

are you sure this is what you were trying to say?  if so what is the speed of heat in a vacuum?
 

I wasn't going to comment on this since I believe Shooter2k must have meant something else.

Since heat in a vacuum is just electromagnetic radiation travelling at speed c (speed of light) it is impossible for objects with mass, such as ions, to travel at sped c unless they have infinite kinetic energy?which is impossible.

The window would not disperse just by being penetrated but small sections might, if the kinetic energy of the attacking object was great enough to overcome the repulsive force from the ions, be able to be pushed out.

Remember this is not a plasma "gun" or "explosion" this plasma is tightly confined to an area of space by an electromagnetic field.

 
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Asymmetric       10/23/2007 3:25:03 PM

thats a hell of a lot of energy
 

Yes it is.

It?s an extreme example to illustrate my point. However I could have used even more insane conditions such as a Quasar just to ram home the point, but theres no need to over do it now is there

 
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