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Subject: Laser rifles
Miles    3/14/2007 7:19:19 PM
How would it be possible to have laser guns in the future?
 
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flamingknives       9/5/2007 3:14:35 PM
If you can pump enough power into a maser to damage people, you can pump it into a laser. The optics of light are, I think, better understood and easier to deal with than those of microwaves, so it is easier to focus a spot.

The US do have a microwave weapon - it looks like a radar dish on top of a Humvee - I think its called Sheriff 
 
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WarNerd    Masers   9/6/2007 4:10:02 AM

It seems, for instance, that a maser set to the "water frequency" would make a snappy antipersonnel weapon.

So you want a long range microwave oven.
 
Been tried.  The biggest problem is that the water vapor in the air dissipates the beam to quickly, limiting range.
 
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WarNerd    Masers   9/6/2007 4:24:03 AM

it's all about energy density for lasers and that means the shorter the wavelength the better.  the major problem right now with laser rifles is trying to figure out how to feed them the power they need.  battery tech just isn't up to that level yet and doesn't look likely to get there any time soon.  someone pops out that room temp superconductor though and laser rifles are just around the corner.



Heat dissipation is an even bigger problem than the power supply for a weapon grade laser.  With maximum conversion efficiencies in the low teens (I think they have gotten that far ...) you have to dissipate 6 to 10 watts for every one you put into the target.
 
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Shooter2K    Lasers as weapons are more than a little ???   10/15/2007 2:10:25 PM
I was going to say silly, but it is to serrious a subject to blow off.
1. First lasers do not work well in any atmosphere! As soon as the energy dencity is high enough to damage a target, it is all ready to high to penitrait the air!
The ten ionised air becomes opaque to the laser radiation and it is then short circuted far short of the target, or just feet from the muzzel IF the energy is high enough.
2. To get around #1 above, they use very large aperatures or openings for the beam to leave. Then the focus the beam at the target, where movement of the target continiously puts new/fresh air into the beam, before it can be ionised! This last is important as a slow moving target like a tank would be imune to laser fire.
3. There are several ways to get around the energy requirements and storage issues! A mono-propellant fuel like hydrozine could burn  and the exhaust spin a miniature turbine to generate electricity and then be combined with a second chemical to form a "Gas Dymanic Laser" Very powerfull and compact and the firing time would only be limmeted by the soldiers ability to cary reactants.
4. Counter measures are very easy if the target is not restricted by weight issues. IE things like nomex felt, phenolic plastics and all of the carbon, glass or fiber re-enforced plastics all ablate and char instead of burn or vaporise and thus a shirt as thin as an ordinary "T" shirt would be proof for long enough to get under cover and return fire for any Laser weapon that it would be practicle to cary.
5. Given all of the above, some sort of projectile weapon would seem to be so much better and very much less expencive to boot!
 
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Asymmetric       10/16/2007 10:46:06 AM
 

I?ve been looking at these forums for ages and never once stumbled into the sci-fi section boy have I have been missing out.


Why use lasers?

Assuming supplies energy dense enough and laser tubes efficient enough to make it feasible:

Plus:
No ballistic curve to compensate for, so easy aiming.
No recoil.
Few to no moving parts.
No need for separate ammunition for different 'calibres' since that is a function of the tube.
Ammunition can be used to power other functions (sights, lights, designators) or other items, like vehicles, further reducing logistics requirements.

Minus:
Sensitive to dirt on the focus/output lens.
Relatively high tech base needed to produce and supply.
No internal moving parts for soldiers to clean and maintain.
Obvious visual trace in the dark or 'dirty' atmospheres.

There is an additional advantage's to using a laser over a kinetic energy weapon. High intensity plasma windows would vaporise any conceivable conventional KE round, where as a photon based weapon will be unaffected, unless the KE round was formed from degenerate matter (or something even crasier, like a singularity) which does not lose structural integrity regardless of temperature.


 
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flamingknives       10/16/2007 5:56:25 PM
All concievable KE rounds?

Perhaps if you could generate a high enough intensity window, but then a concievable KE projectile can go up to and beyond thousand tonne space debris at orbital velocities.

All practical KE projectiles?

All well and good, but how do you determine practical plasma windows? How big and intense would it need to be to stop thirty kilos of depleted Uranium traveling at several km/s? What happens to the mass and momentum of the projectile?

More significantly, how do you apply a magnetic field to contain it that is stable and practical for field use?



 
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Miles       10/16/2007 6:02:24 PM
How about a laser rifle, which can fire unlimited rounds?
 
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Asymmetric    reply   10/16/2007 10:13:04 PM

All concievable KE rounds?

Perhaps if you could generate a high enough intensity window, but then a concievable KE projectile can go up to and beyond thousand tonne space debris at orbital velocities.

All practical KE projectiles?

All well and good, but how do you determine practical plasma windows? How big and intense would it need to be to stop thirty kilos of depleted Uranium traveling at several km/s? What happens to the mass and momentum of the projectile?

More significantly, how do you apply a magnetic field to contain it that is stable and practical for field use?




 

While admittedly being to lazy to bother drawing a graph of Uranium?s depletion vs velocity of round on a set high temperature plasma window at fixed width, even typical ?weak? windows used today run at about 15,000k is still enough to vaporise diamond given time. If you make sure the object you are protecting is effectively shielded and far away for the window, thee is no real reason why you couldn?t make it million of even billions of degrees Kelvin, Alternatively you could simply layer multiply windows one after the other. To be honest I was more intending the ?plasma window vs KE application? to take place in a vacuum i.e. space much like where lasers will themselves will shine without much of there atmospheric problems (such as energy loss through heat)

Basically, despite being unsure of how best to weaponise plasma windows I would be surprised if they weren?t in time. When they are utilised at extreme temperatures only objects with extreme density or high relativistic velocities (which by default become extreme densities if travelling fast enough due to the relativistic mass increases) will survive comparatively intact. There?s not a great deal denser than Uranium that we can effectively use and its huge jump between that and degenerate matter.

To put it more generalised:

As energy output increases and technology improves we will increasingly see more electromagnetic weapons/defences. Photons are charge neutral in addition to being massless, they are unaffected by these effects.

Other than this, photons (massless particles) real advantage is its absolute speed advantage and infinite acceleration, which can only really be counter with armour or precognition of the event.

This answer was a bit fuzzy but never mind, it?s past 3am and I?ve consumed 7 cans of Lager, so cut me some slack.

 
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WarNerd       10/17/2007 1:09:15 AM

1. First lasers do not work well in any atmosphere! As soon as the energy density is high enough to damage a target, it is all ready to high to penetrate the air!

The ten ionized air becomes opaque to the laser radiation and it is then short circuted far short of the target, or just feet from the muzzel IF the energy is high enough.
 
Materials only absorb photons at certain characteristic frequencies, which are also the ones that they emit light at.  The frequencies that are not absorbed by the atmosphere are referred as the 'atmospheric window'.  Current military programs are centered around the Chemical oxygen iodine laser [COIL] which lases iodine vapor, an element not normally present in the atmosphere.

2. To get around #1 above, they use very large apertures or openings for the beam to leave. Then the focus the beam at the target, where movement of the target continuously puts new/fresh air into the beam, before it can be ionized! This last is important as a slow moving target like a tank would be immune to laser fire.

3. There are several ways to get around the energy requirements and storage issues! A mono-propellant fuel like hydrozine could burn  and the exhaust spin a miniature turbine to generate electricity and then be combined with a second chemical to form a "Gas Dymanic Laser" Very powerfull and compact and the firing time would only be limmeted by the soldiers ability to cary reactants.
 
4. Counter measures are very easy if the target is not restricted by weight issues. IE things like nomex felt, phenolic plastics and all of the carbon, glass or fiber re-enforced plastics all ablate and char instead of burn or vaporise and thus a shirt as thin as an ordinary "T" shirt would be proof for long enough to get under cover and return fire for any Laser weapon that it would be practical to cary.
 
I agree, if weight is not an issue it is very easy to protect anything from everything, except getting sucked into a black hole.
 
5. Given all of the above, some sort of projectile weapon would seem to be so much better and very much less expensive to boot!
 
For the moment, and assuming you want to punch holes in people.
If you want to defend an area from missiles and shells then a laser looks potentially (i.e. in the future) much more practical than a projectile weapon.


 
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Shooter2K    Plasma Wpns?   10/18/2007 4:27:40 PM
Plasma weapons sound great, but are actualy very silly? The idea that the plasma could be at multi-million degree temperatures sounds neet, but the reallity of it is quite different!
The fact is that the hotter the plasma for any given containment field strength, the less dence it is! That means that the total energy contained in it is fixed aqnd is ALL WAYS some minor fraction of the field strength! So, if you put a thousand mega-joules into the containment field, or magnetic "Bottle" tha holds it in, the total energy of the plasma is 10-11 Mega-joules? Sort of a waist of power is it not?
Secondly, once you let it out of the Bottle, it disipates at whatever the speed of sound is at that temperature and dencity! Since the Mach number is more related to temperature than density, at those levels, it evaporates all most instantly!
Lastly, the energy dencity is very low. That is something on the order of one gram per cubic meter at 10,000 degrees Kelvin for a few thousand joules of total energy dispersed into a cloud one cubic meter in volume? That dose not sound like it would melt an incomming 48 kilogram 155MM Howitzer shell before it hits you between the eyes to me?
 
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flamingknives       10/18/2007 5:14:51 PM
There are plenty of very real reasons why you couldn't make a plasma window any temperature you like. For a start you have radiant heat. Setting fire to everything around you isn't particularly stealthy or friendly to your environment. plus that heat goes both ways, so you'd get pretty toasty in there. If there is an "in there" to be in. Containment typically requires a structure surrounding the field to support the magnets. So all you need do is target the containment and the window will escape, with explosive results.
 
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andyf       10/18/2007 5:42:09 PM
maybe thats a plasma torpedo?
a 'window 'with a motor
 
 
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Miles       10/18/2007 9:10:14 PM
What about a plasma bazooka? Had that been done before, and how would that work?
 
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Asymmetric       10/19/2007 12:56:53 AM

Plasma weapons sound great, but are actualy very silly? The idea that the plasma could be at multi-million degree temperatures sounds neet, but the reallity of it is quite different!

The fact is that the hotter the plasma for any given containment field strength, the less dence it is! That means that the total energy contained in it is fixed aqnd is ALL WAYS some minor fraction of the field strength! So, if you put a thousand mega-joules into the containment field, or magnetic "Bottle" tha holds it in, the total energy of the plasma is 10-11 Mega-joules? Sort of a waist of power is it not?

Secondly, once you let it out of the Bottle, it disipates at whatever the speed of sound is at that temperature and dencity! Since the Mach number is more related to temperature than density, at those levels, it evaporates all most instantly!

Lastly, the energy dencity is very low. That is something on the order of one gram per cubic meter at 10,000 degrees Kelvin for a few thousand joules of total energy dispersed into a cloud one cubic meter in volume? That dose not sound like it would melt an incomming 48 kilogram 155MM Howitzer shell before it hits you between the eyes to me?


You are presuming this is happening in a non-inertial reference frame with Earth like gravitational fields.
 
In a plasma window the volume and the mass is kept constant, the average density does not decrease. It becomes increasingly more vicousous the more energy you place into the field as the local particles velocities increase within the window. It will depend on the gas used what energy density you will observe.
 
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Asymmetric       10/19/2007 12:57:43 AM

There are plenty of very real reasons why you couldn't make a plasma window any temperature you like. For a start you have radiant heat. Setting fire to everything around you isn't particularly stealthy or friendly to your environment. plus that heat goes both ways, so you'd get pretty toasty in there. If there is an "in there" to be in. Containment typically requires a structure surrounding the field to support the magnets. So all you need do is target the containment and the window will escape, with explosive results.

Plasma windows are already built at sufficiently high temperature to damage any man made object. If I were to use exotic materials like metallic hydrogen at extremely high pressure as the superconductor for the electron flow to generate the electromagnetic field, you could build a plasma field in excess of 100,000s of Kelvin which would not ?melt? under its own temperature. You get some of these odd effects round neutron stars, at billions of Kelvin. There is also nothing stopping you from layering ?weak? ones, one after the other, or simply moving the plasma field to the desired location of impact. Would it incinerate its surroundings? Sure it would, but if your in space who cares. There?s no theoretical reason why you can?t use them to hinder KE rounds as long as you can maintain the high energy requirement, you don?t even have to completely vaporise the round merely weakening its structure, combined with good old fashion dense armour may be enough.

I?m going to leave it to the engineers to work out the most appropriate way of weaponising a plasma window. As another poster has already commented it might not be used ?defensively? but to shield a high yield weapon.

 
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