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Subject: Question about world war Z
phalanx30    9/27/2006 2:41:41 AM
In the book "World War Z" at a battle called Yonkers between the U.S. military and a whole lot of Zombies, is the author correct when he says that massed fire from tanks, Artillery, helicopters, and planes on a packed crowd of zombies would have, at best, minimal effect and that the military would be defeated?
 
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TrustButVerify       7/1/2007 11:10:32 PM
Something I forgot to mention- those armored bulldozers which the combat engineers use would surely come in handy. Wonder what happened to them?

Clarke's brilliance is well recognized in this house. Let me know when Eric Flint or David Weber write a zombie story. Wonder how Hammer's Slammers would cope?

 
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DragonReborn       7/23/2007 12:31:09 PM
5) The virus allows movement through otherwise impassable terrain, such as water, and this aspect is not known to the military. Therefore a seemingly safe natural barrier, like a river, is suddenly breached, threatening rear-echelon units like artillery, logistics and supply and cutting off forward troops from fire-support and ammunition. 
6) Indirect support is intedicted by one or more of the above factors at airbases, pockets of unexpected zombies etc.
 
 
I haven't read the book (but might now I know about it) but in Wiki it mentions that in one part of the book the undead are found to by walking on the ocean floor as to suggest that the can cross oceans by walking. So a river would be easy!
 
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flamingknives       7/23/2007 1:28:29 PM
I was under the impression that crossing a river undetected was not a mechanism used in the book to explain a defeat of the military. The book, AFAICT, just makes a bunch of random arrse up based on a fundamental misunderstanding of modern military weapons or basic science.
 
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ker       7/24/2007 2:13:17 PM

   i dont own WWZ but i do own the author's first zombie book "the Zombie survival guide".  there is a little too much military analysis going on here, this whole zombie idea just started after 9/11 when the author (mel brooks' son!) wrote the zombie survival guide as a joke (making fun of all of the "survival experts" who started pedaling their BS "run for the hills!" manuals to the fear stricken, sometimes sheep-like American public).

   the next book was just a logical progression from this, its not like the guy is trying to pass himself off as a psuedomilitary expert like we do (or at least i do!).  if the zombie horde cant take on a few tanks and choppers, the story will be pretty short and dull dont you think?

I enjoyed "the zombie survival guide."  I think people are almost speeking different languages here.  Maybe the author wanted to say that their is "no military solution" or that our military has fatal flaws in it's thinking.  People also have the bad habit of thinking that if you are good at one thing you must fail at another.  Like the idea that blind people have great hearing in reverse.  People like to believe in "game balance."  It is not true.  Being great at one thing tends to make you better at other things.  (Would you rather play chess against the Olympic marathon winner or a random human if you had to win.)  People see how unfairly good the US military is at technical war fair (ships plains )and believe that we must be bad at moral/athletic war fair (hactets and handgrandes).  Bad thinking but sadly common.  The Japanese were so in love with their fighting spirit advantage that they slow walked weapon development.  US forces had fighting spirit.
 
It may be a surprise to some here but most readers don't find tables of the burst radius of shells compelling reading.  I do.  You do.  Other people not so much.  They want to recognize a theme in the store and are happy to see misrepresentations of weapons effects as a nice tool for the writer use in service of larger truths. 

 
 
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Lu_86    The battle of Yonkers   1/28/2008 3:13:29 AM

I was under the impression that crossing a river undetected was not a mechanism used in the book to explain a defeat of the military. The book, AFAICT, just makes a bunch of random arrse up based on a fundamental misunderstanding of modern military weapons or basic science.


Hi, I'm new here, and I realize this is probably a dead thread by now, but having read the book, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents. I'm probably far less knowledgeable than many of the people around here about strategy and tactics and such, but I'm willing (and eager) to learn. The book is not primarily about the military vs. zombies, in fact it's more of a sociology "fable" of sorts, set against a zombie holocaust backdrop. There's more stories about civilian survivors, political and technical experts than military personnel, the book itself is organized in "survival vignettes", that is, survivors are supposedly interviewed by the author of the book, many years after the end of the war, to collect the "Human" side of the story after compiling a factbook about the conflict for the U.N. According to the book, the epidemic started in China, possibly triggered by the flooding caused by the 3 gorges dam. The Chinese hid the incident for some reason (it might have been their doing in some way) with massive army deployement which was widely interpreted as a dissident crackdown. Chinese dissidents (in the book anyway) are often used as a source of black market organs, some of these were infected and ended up going all around the world to waiting patients (which is how the first cases spread out of China). Intel agencies all around the world were confident in the "dissident crackdown" interpretation, the CIA in particular was weakened by the "last brushfire war" after taking the brunt of the blame for the intelligence failures (it is implied Brooks is talking about Iraq). The U.S. army was also at an all time manpower shortage, and of course, heads in the brass rolled from the aforementioned failure. Most leaders and intel personnel thought the stories about the rising dead as some sort of counterintelligence ploy, or perhaps the product of hysteria, in other words there was total disbelief and denial until the problem got too large to be swept under the carpet. The exception to this rule was Israel, which took the Mossad's warnings seriously and responded by screening refugees and building a massive perimeter wall with hardpoints and antipersonnel weapons. The American response to Israeli advice was the creation of "Alpha teams", SOCOM fireteams deployed to contain small outbreaks all across the U.S. And it worked, for awhile. A corporation developed an "African rabies" (the popular name for the zombie virus, since the first massive outbreaks outside China started in South Africa) vaccine called "Phalanx", which didn't work but relaxed the public. Eventually the combination of a virtually token government response, ignorance and apathy by the public, and misinformation by mass media outlets caused the disease to spread like wildfire. By the time of Yonkers, there were hotspots all across the world, and all across America. Most of the eastern seaboard was overrun with hordes of the undead, we're talking about millions of zombies on the New York area alone. The army chose to make a stand at Yonkers to rally national morale and reassure the public, and they expected an easy win against a hundred thousand zombies. It was expected to be a quick battle where overwhelming fire would crush the zombies, much like in Iraq, but easier since the zombies are dumb and packed tight together. They issued enough munitions for a brief, overwhelming encounter, not a battle of attrition that may well have lasted for days (which was what they were against). The latest and greatest tech was issued, land warrior systems, NBC gear (the virus wasn't airborne but they looked awesome on T.V.), and supposedly there was almost one reporter per every 3 servicemen. The army used a river as a natural barrier and held a bridge using it as a killzone. The initial artillery barrage was devastating, but it was wasted as there were relatively few zombies. Then the trickle began to turn into a flood, and eventually the artillery ran out of shells. Then they used automatic grenade launchers and heavy MGs, which created a "woodchipper" effect, but these too ran out of ammo eventually. So the units started to use AT weaponry (by now thousands of zombies were coming across the river, as they don't need air) to little effect. To make matters worse, the area behind the frontline was not secured: some infected people were locked up in buildings because their relatives thought the disease had (or would have) a cure, some of them were in the sewers. Jolted awake by the gunfire, they started attacking the back of the line, and thanks to the live feed system, the grunts
 
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BAKUNIN       2/27/2008 1:35:42 PM
The author actually does give a sort of reasoning behind their abilities to amass such numbers as to overpower a heavily armed, yet underprepared and unassuming enemy. This was set in New York after the major infection took place. That means there were probably some five to six million from the New York City and Manhattan Island area. Probably some more than that.

The author also states that the zombies use a call when a prey is in sight; their moan. Other zombies hear it, and moan as well, and so on and so in, in a great wave, and they do not stop moaning until killed or vocally incapacitated. That means you have up to six million zombies coming towards the controlled position, all in huge waves. That, no matter where your battlefield, troop number (of any modern army in any single engagement), or what weapons you have, is an intimidating number to have suddenly appear swarming in on you if you're not expecting it in any way.

 
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flamingknives       2/27/2008 2:46:42 PM
Six million is a large number of zombies, but how long does it take to shamble from manhattan to Yonkers?  
I make it about ten miles.

Couple that with the idea that any halfway competant officer isn't going to hold his position when the artillery has fired so much that it has run out of ammunition. He'll be sorting a disengagement plan out by the time they get into support weapon range, if not earlier.

Outflanked underwater makes sense.

Artillery suddenly not being the premier killer of the battlefield is ridiculous, and the idea that a military force going in to one of their own cities with MLRS is "underprepared" is pretty bonkers.

 
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BAKUNIN       2/27/2008 3:57:20 PM
The author actually does give a sort of reasoning behind their abilities to amass such numbers as to overpower a heavily armed, yet underprepared and unassuming enemy. This was set in New York after the major infection took place. That means there were probably some five to six million from the New York City and Manhattan Island area. Probably some more than that.

The author also states that the zombies use a call when a prey is in sight; their moan. Other zombies hear it, and moan as well, and so on and so in, in a great wave, and they do not stop moaning until killed or vocally incapacitated. That means you have up to six million zombies coming towards the controlled position, all in huge waves. That, no matter where your battlefield, troop number (of any modern army in any single engagement), or what weapons you have, is an intimidating number to have suddenly appear swarming in on you if you're not expecting it in any way.

 
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Shooter2K    Author's idiocy!   7/25/2008 6:10:12 PM
There are so many different ways that Armed forces can issue brain wounds to Zombies that it is not plausable for them to advance threw a choke point! Think of the Chinese "Human Wave Attacks" in Korea! Even given the lack of fire power compaired to today's Army, the good guys slaughtered the Chinks by the MILLIONS!
Modern weapons are at least two if not three orders of magnatude more effective and danderious than the weapons of WW-II and Korea! If they just aim at the head of the front row of Zombies, 5.56 will go threw at least two skuls and 7.62 will go threw four to five! That makes enfilade very dangerious to massed Zombies who do not duck and tend to pack up at choke points. Then Tank and SP Guns firing HE ammo will have 100% effectivness at all points close to the detonation point! The blast kills those close by, by concussing the brain with the shock wave. This works on real people too! Then there are ICMs that generate many tens of thousands of leathal fragments from each round! ( 80-100K per round!) Each weapon is capable of killing hundreds if not thousands only counting brain wounds. Then as the range closes, the muzzel blast from Tank main guns and SP Howitzers will kill ALL with in a dozzen or so meters in front of the guns.
Finaly there are the indavidual soldiers them selves. Each caries at least 600 rounds and from ~10 feet away, it is hard to miss brain shots at a rate that the zombies can not out race. Then there is air power and all that it entails! A 500 pounder will kill every brain with in 80-100M even if no fragment hit them by concussing their brains! Fragments are possable dangerious to over 900M!
 
No, the author did not have a clue how powerfull modern weapons are!
 
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swhitebull    As if there werent enough, try THIS   7/26/2008 10:58:08 AM
 
 
swhitebull
 
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