StarGate - Possible or impossible?

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Warhammer RE:StarGate - Technical side of a StarGate 10/14/2004 1:30:01 PM

Lots of discussion on the probability of life in the universe, and probablility of government conspiracies, but not much discussion on whether a stargate would work given our current knowledge, and why. First, we would have to look at current wormhole theory, and if it could be applied into a on demand system which we could just activate at will. Wormholes possible? Entirely, however most theories on their occurences are on such a vast scale, that fitting them into a small room, let alone finding the power to open one is far beyond anything we can come up with at this time. Most wormholes from our limited experience and conjecture, are usually forced open when something the size of 3+ of our suns explodes, or violently implodes(usually both at the same time). The energy required for such a transaction is more than our entire planet has available if every single gram of mass were turned into photons. So, how are we going to fit one into an 8 foot circle, and if we figure out how, how are we going to reduce the power needed, and where is it going to come from? In Stargate the series, crystals in the DRD provide control necessary to force the naquada(which the stargate is made of) to open a wormhole somehow. Like doggtag said, there are technologies that we have yet to even dream of, and we might get the technology needed after hundreds to thousands of years of tinkering with the universe. That is pretty much our current constaints for wormhole technology. We don't know how to manipulate spacetime without vast gravitational forces and/or velocities, and from what we do know, we don't have the power to do so on earth. A stargate has a semblance of possible reality from our perspective, but we aren't at the point where we can do that ourselves, or come up with a real plan to do so. The variable that would give us such knowledge and stargate technology earlier than taking hundreds, or maybe even thousands of years to think it up ourselves, would be outside involvement. We either need to find a stargate or be secretly talking with aliens teaching us secrets of the universe if we want to use the technology anytime in the near future. So, say we have found a stargate in egypt and it is sitting in a secret US governemtn facility for us to use, study, and reverse engineer. We suddenly have an item that we can work backwards from much faster than had we worked forward to our own such device. How would such a device work? Well, if we have the device, and it makes wormholes to pre-programmed destination in the universe, using power derived from it's own constuct, then we are obviously working with some unknown material, or combination of materials that allows the stargate to manipulate energy and spacetime in ways we have never though of. First step in figuring out how it works would be to figure out what it is, how it was made, and whether or not we have materils present on earth to duplicate such device. If it already works, carving off a chunk of it for all the testing needed might not be the wisest decision. After much testing, we figure out the elements, and their configuration used to make the stargate. Then we look at the energy involved, and the end result of the interaction of that energy, and the material of the stargate and we figure out a theory of how it forms the wormhole in the first place. So, after lots of testing, we find out that this combination of materials and energy will manipulate spacetime in a way that we can open a wormhole. Then, we have to figure out how that wormhole is controlled, once it has been opened. I am inclined to believe it would work on a system sinilar to all other forces we know of. Path of least resistance. Like electicity, and pressure, and any other force that will go wherever it is easiest to go, I think spacetime and wormholes would act in a similar fashion, even though it is highly unknown. When electricty travels though a circuit, it always goes where electrons have a slot to fill, which is positive, or ground. You have a battery, with 2 sides, positive and negative. The negative side of the battery is filled with atoms that have an overabundance of electrons in their orbit. When put next to an atom with less electrons than it should, an atom with lots of electrons will discard the extra on to the empty one. So, when you connect a wire from negative to positive on the battery, all the electrons just bump along one at a time in a long string(except the wire is many atoms wide, so it is a lot at one) to the empty(positive) zone of the battery until the path of least resistance is reduced to a normal state and electrons don't have anywhere to go.(at which point the battery is considred dead) This is how all known systems of force work in thw world, liquid, electrical, thermal, and kinetic. Hot to cold, negative to positive, full tank to empty tank, and big linebacker pushing though a small blocker. I am just using simple speculation when I say that a wormhole thought to be created using vast amounts of force, would follow a path where there is nothing in its way. Depending on the physics of spacetime, and how our darkmatter research progresses, there are a number of possibilities for wormhole guidance, given the path of least resistance model. I will use the exploding star to articulate this, since it will be easier than using a stargate model which is even more theoretical in nature. A large sun goes supernova creating such a large amount of force, that it creates a wormhole extending off into the unknown. Or, a blackhole(created by a supernova most likely) with such a large concentrated gravitational force acting on spacetime that a wormhole is present in the singularity. If a sun explodes causing a wormhole to be created, where is that wormhole going to stop, if at all? Perhaps the force traveling though spacetime will be effected by other masses existing in normal space, and will either be pushed away from them, or pulled towards them, depending on how the physics play out. Each planet/star may act as an interstellar ground for the force of the wormhole, with the open space acting like a conductive wire. An exploding star might have its wormhole directed at the closest mass, and it may stop there, or it might bounce to the next mass, and on and on until it maybe strikes a blackhole, or another wormhole. It would be a good way to make/define the wormhole paths in the first place. Some star novas in the distant path, and now there are all kinds of paths snaking about the galaxy though the darkmatter from the wormhole that shot around like a static charge. Then some intelligent race comes and finds that they can manipulate this framework by playing on the damage already done. They find they can create a wormhole in their star system with minimal effort, and that it goes to a good number of the stars near to them, due to various paths that have been created by exploding stars in the past. Given the model I just suggested, it would change the stargate series just a bit. Earth wouldn't be able to dial up every single planet in the network, but would be able to go to maybe half a dozen planets, and each of those planets would be connected to half a dozen others. Kind of a bottleneck system that would change the whole story around, but it is a plausible theory for the guidance of the wormholes. Maybe even the ancients could manually carve out paths between the stars so that their wormholes could go to any of a number of places. The farther away a planet, the more power needed to force a wormhole to follow the path that you want it to. I would think under such circumstances that any given stargate could be manually fired, hit a random stargate on the network, and then the homestation could record the results. The next time they want to go to that same planet, they just use the same amount of power they did in the random test. Just some theories I have ran through my head, since I own all 7 seasons of stargate and have watched it quite a bit. Anyone else have any ideas of how it would work if we were reverse engineering one right now in some secret mountain complex?

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Warhammer RE:StarGate - Technical side of a StarGate 10/14/2004 3:10:25 PM

I just remembered the visual they give when a team goes through a wormhole in stargate. They step in, then it goes through this twisting roller coaster type thing, and they fly by 6-7 stars as they head to their destination. Kind of wonder if they had already thought of the resistance paths when they made that. You might not have to stop at every star in the network, you could just kind of bounce off of them until you reached the star you wanted, however that is controlled.

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Nanheyangrouchuan RE:The Other Side 10/14/2004 5:45:01 PM

There was a star trek NG episode like that too.

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Nanheyangrouchuan stargates, wormholes, etc 10/14/2004 5:46:18 PM

Look no further than the USS Eldridge. Other than perhaps microwave ovens, I'd really like to get a look at the follow up experiments to that little trial run.

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Nanheyangrouchuan RE:StarGate - Technical side of a StarGate 10/14/2004 5:48:25 PM

maybe it is not a question of brute energy applied to the device but something along the lines of finessing the physical rules of the universe.

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Nanheyangrouchuan RE:StarGate - Technical side of a StarGate 10/14/2004 5:48:26 PM

maybe it is not a question of brute energy applied to the device but something along the lines of finessing the physical rules of the universe.

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doggtag RE:StarGate - finessing/seducing physics into cooperating 10/14/2004 6:29:55 PM

You bring up good points, Nanhey: we may not need to achieve miraculous technologies to make it happen. Consider that aircraft don't yet actually defy gravity per se, inasmuch as created a balance between thrust, lift, and drag to "circumvent" gravity by means of the Venturi Effect (for all intensive purposes, aircraft are actually "sucked" into the sky by the lower air pressures above the wings.) Perhaps we may, in the future, discover other methods of circumventing light speed, certain aspects of quantum physical laws, and other as-yet undiscovered physical legalities of the Cosmos. Skirting around the laws may give us the same result as defying them outright. .

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Warhammer RE:StarGate - Technical side of a StarGate 10/15/2004 4:15:19 PM

Basically, that is how it will have to work out, unless we can harness a singularity for every opening of a wormhole. We just need to find what combination of energy, frequencies, materials, and perhaps even plain old chaos and luck to open up our pipelines to the future.

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Warhammer RE:StarGate - Warhammer 10/18/2004 3:35:54 PM

I was thinking about something like, firing a super dense prjectile, or stream of energy through a ring. The stream/projectile might weaken spacetime as it violently passes, and then the ring powers up and pulls the rift wide open. Just a thought.

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fullamongo RE:StarGate - Warhammer 10/20/2004 6:19:56 PM

2 points sprung to mind. scientist have proven in theory that the star trek warp travel (fold over the universe and 'break on through to the other side') system would work. however, it would require all the energy in the universe to do so. Has anyone here played Half-life? in that game we find a way a teleport our way to another world. what do we do? we colonise it, spanish style, and steal their resources (to fuel the next generation of SUV's i guess ;-))

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A Patriot RE:Time travel 11/21/2004 9:32:11 PM

I'm pretty sure time travek is possible, but only time travelling into the future. Astronauts really do travel through time, by bilionths of seconds of course. Time is definitly a huge factor in determining whether or not there are other lifeforms other thann us (For me, I am 100% sure there is other life out there, intelligent or not!). Think about it, Time isn't something we just made up to make a schedule, it's actually somthing! Not matter, but it varies. So wouldn't that mean that if somewhere else in this universe there was a planet where by time travelled 10 x as fast or somthing, that the life on that planet would have had advanced 10x more. I could go on about some other intresting theories I have heard about life in our universe, but I have to go, I'll post some of them tomorow after I come back from my classes.

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Cocoonboy RE:Time travel-Patriot 11/22/2004 12:16:51 AM

Imagine if the Romans had created the engine and so on ? Think about it, they had everything we have and then some. So what I'm thinking about is what do we have right here in the present that we don't even know could launch all of us into the future. I think a big problem with time is time itself. If we thought of time differently perhaps we would look at it differently. You know as well as I do that that there is an equation probably on a Coke or Pepsi that could solve the worlds problems......if only we re-arranged one word or something..

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A Patriot RE:Time travel-Patriot 11/22/2004 3:12:08 PM

To help some of you understand why time travel is possible: So where do we start? Well let us start with one of the greatest triumphs of the human mind, the great theorem of Pythagoras, a true pillar of all mathematics and physics. The theorem, which is applicable to right angled triangles in flat Cartesian (Newtonian) space takes the form of: c^2 = a^2 + b^2 where a, b and c are the lengths of the sides of the triangle. Next we will jump straight to Einstein's theory of Relativity which states that neither time, length, or indeed mass remain constant additive quantities when approaching the speed of light c. Our simple ideas of time and space come from the fact the we are so used to living in a three dimensional universe. Einstein showed that this was simply not true and in fact all the "foundational" three laws of Newton have to be fudged by the Lorentz factor L_f = (1 - v^2/c^2)^-1/2 Elementary Guide to Relativity There are, however, certain quantities that do remain constant. These constants are related to four-dimensional quantities known as metric tensors. From this Einstein proved that space and time are two aspects of the same thing and that matter and energy are also two aspects of the same thing. From the second of these concepts we get the most famous equation in physics E = mc^2 Now since time and space are aspects of space-time and we wish to travel through time and not build atom bombs we will leave E=mc^2 for the moment. To illustrate this, look at the extension of Pythagorean theorem for the distance, d, between two points in space: d^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 where x, y and z are the lengths, or more correctly the difference in the co-ordinates, in each of the three spatial directions. This distance remains constant for fixed displacements of the origin. In Einstein's relativity the same equation is modified to remain constant with respect to displacement (and rotation), but not with respect to motion. For a moving object, at least one of the lengths from which the distance, d, is calculated is contracted relative to a stationary observer. The equation now becomes: d^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 (1-v^2/c^2)^1/2 and this implies that the distances all shrink as one moves faster, so does this mean there are no constant distances left in the universe? The answer is that there are because of Einstein's revolutionary concept of space-time where time is distance and distance is time! So now s^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - ct^2 and this new distance s (remember s stands for Space-time) does indeed remain constant for all who are in relative motion. This distance is said to be a Lorentz transformation invariant and has the same value for all inertial observers. Since the equation mixes time and space up we have to always think in terms of this new concept: space-time! A Practical Example of Time Travel What does this have to do with time travel? Imagine an imaginary journey to Andromeda, some 2.2 million light years away. For the time being ignore the problems of propulsion (like they do in all Sci-Fi films!). Firstly, lets assume a Newtonian Universe and we'll ignore the effects of gravity and friction (not much of this in space anyway). The first problem: how fast do we accelerate? Well, if we could accelerate at an infinite rate we could reach an infinite speed instantly and reach our destination in no time at all! Unfortunately, if we were to do so we would experience infinite acceleration forces and be crushed to an infinitesimally thin film instantly. Not much use. The gravitational field of the Earth of 1g (9.81 m/s per second) is however a comfortable acceleration to subject us to, so lets assume the acceleration of our spaceship will be 1g. So how long to Andromeda at 1g using Newton's theory? We will add the condition that we wish to stop when we get there, if only to turn around and come back. The best time we can make is achieved by accelerating for the first half of the journey and decelerating for the second. The total time for the trip can be calculated to be some 2,065 years. Rather a long time really. Consider the same journey in an Einsteinian Universe. We now have a limited maximum speed (the speed of light), which at 1g is reached in 30,000,000 seconds, or a little under 354 days. After we reach this speed, how much longer will it take to reach Andromeda? The answer is no time at all! For the distance to Andromeda will have shrunk to zero for the spacecraft. However to the people back on Earth a considerable length of time would pass: some 2.2 million years. OK so what's the catch ??? For practical reasons, such as having no way of navigating in an infinitely thin universe, we would stop just short of the speed of light at the halfway point and reverse engines to come to a halt at Andromeda. The entire trip would have taken a little less than 2 years at a comfortable 1g. The same is true of a trip to anywhere within the Universe. We can get literally anywhere in a little under two years: four for the round trip. The main problem is the ageing of the rest of the universe while we are travelling. The other problem is that the mass of the spacecraft rises greatly as it approaches the speed of light, so an enormous power source would be required. What about power? For the Newtonian case the power requirement is enormous, even assuming perfect efficiency. The energy required would be 5.1*10^26 Joules for a 10 tonne spaceship. This is rather a lot. NASA's space shuttles are not really up to it I'm afraid. In the Einsteinian Universe the power is still huge since the mass of the ship rises and becomes so large! And unless you get very close to c the distance to Andromeda will not shrink very much and it will take ages to get there. Unfortunately there are still a few little problems: the friction associated with such a high speed and of course the dreaded time dilation effects. Friction: though space is essentially empty, with increasing speed the little matter that there is would become increasingly concentrated. In addition, its relative mass increases, consequently, we would encounter it with ever greater density. Indeed as we approach the speed of light the whole Universe becomes concentrated into an infinitely thin, and consequently infinitely dense, barrier in the direction in which we are travelling. The force of friction would increase accordingly.

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A Patriot RE:Time travel-Patriot 11/22/2004 3:15:04 PM

Check this source out, very detailed, I used this website awhile ago for a prehistory class when we were discussing the possibility of travelling through space. link

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A Patriot RE:StarGate - Possible or impossible? 11/22/2004 3:27:53 PM

I will post again tomorow, I'm really busy. I like this thread, it's the most intresting one on here :)

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