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Subject: Mil-28 versus AH-64 Apache
red star    5/25/2003 6:09:00 PM
I will go for good old Mil.
 
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boris the romanian    Jacques   4/23/2004 9:13:34 PM
I said the Tigre isn't the best not because of its weight, but because it isn't as heavily armed or armoured as its heavier counterparts. It has an excellent sensor suite, but it lacks the combat persistence of larger attack helos. The Ka-50 is an excellent design, and your concerns about the rotors, while understandable, are inaccurate. They do, however, provide great benefits (such as a near doubling of the rotor area, and lift, when compared to rivals like the Ah-64 or Tigre). They allow it to perform some unique manoeveres. It is more heavily armouted and much more heavily armed than the Tigre, and it also has a pretty effective sensor suite. Its the same story with the Longbow. The Tigre is a great helo for its class but just because ots French doesn't make it the best. You have to give valid reasons to back up your claim.
 
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jacques    RE:Jacques   4/24/2004 4:13:33 AM
I never said anything is better because it's french made. I said the Tigre is the best attack helicopter because that is the truth. You can't gag me saything the truthful fact. The Tigre has better electronique suit than other helicoptes out there. It's more agile and very fast. It has edequate armor for the 21st century battlefield and the foreable future. Okay it doesn't have the most firepower but that is not a major comcern. A Tiger carry 8 antitank missiles whie the apache, havoc and hokum carries 16 antitank missiles. Are you going to kill 16 tanks on a single sortie ? Eight is more than enough. In air to air role the Tigre is best equipted because the Mistral is a better missile than the stinger and igla. I agree the Tigre carries less weapons load than other helicopters but it's not a handicap. It's actually a plus because it carries less but more effective weapons. Beside the main issue of this thread this to settle between the Havoc and the Apache. I give my vote the to Havoc over the Apache. The Hokum is still a death trap. How many airmen must die to prove the Hokum is a flawed designed ?.
 
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jacques    RE:Mil Mi 28 vs Apache   4/24/2004 4:43:14 AM
the most beautiful helo out there to my eye would be the s76. classic design with very clean lines ...I agree with the clean lines on the s76 but tail fan and the elegant design of the dauphin has no equal in the world of helicopter. s76 is beautiful but miss helicopter contest prize still go to the dauphin.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Jacques   4/24/2004 6:37:09 PM
The Tigre IS very fast and agile, but so is the Ka-50/52. The Hokum can perform some unique manoevres and is more resistant to the effects of high winds because of the twin rotors. It is significantly more heavily armoured and much more heavily armed (12x Vikhr ATGMs, 2x B-8 rocket pods, 2a42 internal gun). It is also better in the air to air role than the Tigre due to better flight performance coupled with the R-73 (I hope you don't think the Mistral is superior...) The Hokum is also more survivable than any helicopter out there, a combination of flight perfromance, armour, and ejection seat. Just because you don't like the twin rotors doesn't make them a death trap. In the Hokum's development period (some twenty years), how many times have the rotors collided (and the Hokum DID pull some amazing and pretty demanding manoeveres during flight testing)..... The Longbow is also superior to the Tigre by virtue of its mast mounted radar/AGM-114K combination. It is also more heavily armoured and more heavily armed (either 16 Hellfires or eight Hellfires and two 2.75inch rocket pods) than the Frenchman. Of, course you aren't going to kill 16 tanks in one sortie, but such a warload does endow a level of flexibility to the Apache/Hokum unit that the Tigre would lack. I repeat, the Tigre is a great helicopter, and relatively cheap given its capabilities, but it is not the equal of its larger stablemates.
 
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gf0012-aust    Loadouts and all that jazz   4/24/2004 7:23:26 PM
Whether you want to kill 8 tanks in a sortie or not is actually not as relevant as the fact that you have greater flexibility. Tankers, APC's, IFV's, parked aircraft are all allergic to Hellfires. The extra 8 means another 8 potential opportunities. To claim that contras are death traps implies that there is some supporting data available. I'd certainly like to see it as the USAF experience with the Husky was pretty good.
 
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jacques    RE:Loadouts and all that jazz   4/25/2004 7:10:27 PM
Look like I can't convice you the merite of the Tiger. We will have to wait and see. Boris you must remeber that the Russian air force favour the Havoc over the Hokum for a good reason. gf0012-aust I must remind you that australian is chooses the Tiger. It is your patriotic duty to defend your nation assets :-))
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Loadouts and all that jazz   4/26/2004 5:41:38 AM
"Boris you must remeber that the Russian air force favour the Havoc over the Hokum for a good reason" Initially the airforce favoured the Hokum, but it now favours the Havoc for two reasons; a) It is significantly cheaper than the Hokum and it still provides a major boost in capabilities when compared to the Mi-24V/P. As Putin wishes to modernise the armed forces, the lower cost Mi-28/28N would mean more Hind units could be overhauled. b) The Mi-28 has a far greater degree of commonality with the Mi-24 than does the Ka-50. This would mean that much of the logistical equipment of former Hind units could be used on the Havocs, making the modernisation cheaper regarding training costs, new maintenance equipment/schedules, etc. In the initial tests the airforce appreciated the superior capabilities of the Ka-50/52 when compared to the Havoc, but budgetary realities have made that a short lived dream. I'm not biased against the Tigre, but I fail to see how it could be better than either the Ka-50/52 or the Apache. If you could present me with hard facts to the contrary I'm all ears. Note that I'm talking SPECIFICS.
 
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baelevil    RE:About PAH-2 Tiger   5/20/2004 11:21:46 AM
My country has selected the tiger for it´s armed forces and maybe i am not being totally objective in my opinion. but i think that in the new world order best helo for most nations is the tiger. The tigger is one of the cheapest if not the cheapest advanced attack helicopter. Its maintenance per fly hour is by far the lowest of all the helos in the discusion. It´s modular built makes it posible to swing between mision roles in every tiger plataform in very short time. So it can be converted from a tank killer, to a CAS or CAP helo in some hours while the others helos are designed mainly for one kind of mission. Also its weapons and engines are highly modular so it can land with a damaged engine and without amunition and in an hour the blades, engines,gun and weapons could be changed an the tiger in the air again. It´s avionics, FLIR and Optics are the most advanced exception to the lack of radar and organisation of tiger packs. Where longbow apache an ka-52 are clearly the best. The tiger is made mainly of composite materials so its weight is very low and its engines are quite powerful so it´s much more agile than any other helicopter in the world except for the kamov-50 series. But the conbination of low observability and low infrared signature gives advantage over the hokum in AA and against SAM compared to all. One of the main lacks of the tiger is the lack of armour that makes this helicopter more vulnerable to AAA but it´s suposed to use its speed and LO to elude direct hits. The tiger is quite light i think i remember it weights little more than 3 tones. It can be ferried in small cargo airplanes even in a truck. And also it is designed to operate from sea platforms although it´s not prepared in it´s first units it will be in near future with very few mods. sorry for my english but i´m spanish and i don´t write well in this language.
 
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Try2BUnbiased    RE:About PAH-2 Tiger   5/21/2004 5:26:14 PM
u still havn't proved that the tiger comes out on top when compared to the Ka-50. all u said it is more economical . that it may be and tht is a big asset. but it is an asset to the company trying to manufacture it and trying to sell to cash strapped nations. but comparing assault capabilties alone u do not prove it is better option than a Ka-50. and frankly the higher weapon loadout gives u the chance to do much more damage then the tiger can it seems to me.
 
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Try2BUnbiased    RE:jacques.    5/21/2004 5:31:10 PM
lol. i find ur fear of the Ka-50 becoming a deahttrap silly. it is like those old people who are very vary of trying out new technologies or who still don't trust airplanes and insist on going by foot. by an engineering standpoint it might be safe, just as travelling by plane is extremely safe, but tht is just something stuck in the person's mind. it is absurd. tht way many inventions throughout man kind's history seem to have been against common sense and seemed to have been very dangerous but now once they have proved to be safe and reliable we all use them. lol.
 
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