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Subject: Mil-28 versus AH-64 Apache
red star    5/25/2003 6:09:00 PM
I will go for good old Mil.
 
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Kodiak    RE:Mi Mil 28 vs Apache   6/4/2003 2:41:11 PM
The APache is the better combat helicopter, no question. And redstar, how do you figure that a mig-29 is better for close air support than an f-16?
 
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Kodiak    RE:Mi Mil 28 vs Apache   6/4/2003 2:43:21 PM
and the leopard has proven nothing in actual combat, where the abrams has, against a battle hardened and experienced eenemy. now, I know the iraqi tanks are old russian t-72's, and the iraqi crews were not the best, but they wern't the wors,either, and the germans have had 0 combat experience, so I want to know what it is about the leopard that makes it significantly better than the abrams in your estimation
 
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red star    RE:Mi Mil 28 vs Apache   6/7/2003 10:50:58 AM
MIG-29 is better IMO because of the HMS + R-73 combination. The helmet mounted sight gives it launch capabilities which are better than the F-16. That said, the MIG has a short combat radius. About the leopard: abrams wins because of the superb training. Thats the major factor why american hardware wins wars-they fly F-15Cs with superb training against MiG-21s and SU-15s flown by **** pilots, same with tanks.
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:Mi Mil 28 vs Apache ... red star   6/7/2003 12:29:16 PM
I agree that many people have over emphasized the importance of the equipment. Just look at how many "what is the best" topics there are. Training is always the key in being able to gain combat effectivness from the equipment you have in a heads up fight.
 
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FreeTaiwan    RE:Mi Mil 28 vs Apache ... red star   6/9/2003 11:53:10 PM
MiG-29 better than F-16? WHAT VERSION OF MiG-29 vs. what kind of F-16? If redstar is talking about the latest, top of the line MiG-29, he is right. All MiG-29s are better in knif-fights than F-16s, but in BvR (happens about 75% in modern air to air fighting)most versions really sucked. For convience sake, all F-16 here are presumed to have AMRAAM and Sidewinder L/M. As a Dogfighter, though, MiG-29 is much better. The original MiG-29 can only engage one target at a time and has no range. It cannot fire active-radar seeking AAMs. It's avionics is poor, especially the pit, a maze of dials and gauges. It will get slaughtered by an F-16 in BvR, even if the Viper is carrying Sparrows due to defects of its radar and pit. The best MiG-29, however, has a "modernized" digital pit and can fire AA-12 and AA-11. I do not believe the radar's lack of search angle and range is addressed, giving the F-16 some margin of superiority in BvR, but not too much. In dogfights it is superior due to HMS. This version can bring up a respectable fight with the Viper in BvR and can outfight it in CQB. If the F-16 is equipped w/ Sidewinder-X, which is not in service yet, they will be virtual equals.It would be interesting to see a fight of the titans, although anything short of an international Armagadon will this happen. Most MiG-29 users in the world, such as Iraq, has early MiG-29s. These countries have no AA-12, bad pit, and no fly-by-wire, which explains the horrible performance of Iraqi and Serbian MiG-29s. I would much prefer to say that each corresponding generation of MiG-29 and F-16 are equals. Again, all MiGs engaged by USAF are inferior models with down-right stupid pilots, which explains why pilots are the most powerful weapon system in a fighter.
 
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FreeTaiwan    RE:Mi Mil 28 vs Apache part 2   6/10/2003 12:04:38 AM
As for the choppers in the original post, it must be said that Apache and Mi-28 are designed for different roles. Apache is meant to be a tank killer, in which it excelled any chopper in the world and beat the Hind by far. It's advanced fire & control and hellfire are designed to rain destruction upon mech. infanrty and armour. The M-28, on the other hand, seem to perform significantly better in CAS against high volume of small arms and shoulder-launched rockets such as the stinger and RPG. What Apache did in Gulf War I is something the Hind can never do, just like the Hind survived in Afganistan but the Apache didn't.
 
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Hellfire    RE:Mi Mil 28 vs Apache ... red star   7/8/2003 6:30:14 AM
And of course, F-16s pilots will try to use their BVR advantage as much as they can, and engage mig-29 at close range only if absolutely necessary. The opposite is harder to do.
 
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boris the romanian    MiG-29 vs F-16 in BVR combat   2/7/2004 3:12:52 AM
Even the basic MiG-29 is a match for an F-16C in a BVR engagement. The baseline R-27 may only have a SARH seeker but it is accurate and deadly. The MiG can only track one target at a time, but this isn't a limitation when it comes to using SARH weapons. Aerodynamically, the R-27 is superior to the AMRAAM. it has a more powerful motor and bigger control surfaces. it also carries a more powerful warhead. the R-27 seeker is also resistant enough to countermeasures and jamming to make the F-16 pilot worry. And the major advantage the MiG-29 has in a BVR engagement (even though he can only use this advantage when supported by AWACS or ground radar because of IFF considerations) is the IRST/R-27T combination. If properly vectored as to avoid friendly aircraft, the MiG-29 can attack BVR totally passive, and thus without warning. Also, the superior speed of the MiG-29 will translate to increased missle launch range. The AMRAAM is indeed superior to the standard R-27, but it has a similar range and thus the launch aircraft isn't entirely impervious to a return shot, particularly from an R-27T, as that would then leave the Fulcrum free for evasive manoeveres. Which leads me to another interesting point. like most aircraft, the F-16 uses a pulse doppler radar which filters out contacts below a certain airspeed. the supreremely agile Fulcrum can use this to its advantage; correctly executing a Cobra from 800kmh can drop the airspeed to below 200kmh in a matter of seconds, and if the forward velocity isn't sufficient for level flight, a quick kick to the rudders port or starboard coupled with the ailerons would place the MiG in a dive to (hopefully) recover. anyone aware of the "doppler effect" will know that the radio waves returning to the hostile radar will have dropped considerably in energy, perhaps sufficient for the "filter" to kick in and break lock. the Kolokol manoevre will lower the Fulcrum's forward velocity to zero for a very brief moment, which may also, coupled with an appropriate chaff release, break lock. of course, with regards to the manoevers just outlined, an extremely competent pilot will have to be at the controls. on a final note, while the pit of the Fulcrum is indeed much less sophisticated compared to the F-16, the workload is much less than commonly believed; the pilot has a very versatile and effective wide angle HUD in which the only data not projected is the threat warning (the display is very clearly laid out in the bottom right of the pit), the radar/AWACS "picture" (shown in a clear display above the threat warning display) and the fuel situation (very clearly shown in a gauge to the left of the threat warning display). also, the "systems damage display" or EKRAN panel (to the right of the radar display) shows damaged systems much more clearly than the F-16C. the R-77 armed MiG-29s are more than a match for the F-16 in BVR combat (when skillfully flown) and totally outclass it in a dogfight.
 
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boris the romanian    Mil Mi 28 vs Apache   2/7/2004 3:26:38 AM
The Apache's strong points over the Havoc: its primary ATGM, the Hellfire, is more accurate and more powerful than the Havoc's Shturm. it has a superior FLIR/avionics suite it has superior exhaust deflection; sideways as opposed to straight towards the ground (directly towards a ground based SAM). The Havoc's strong points over the Apache: it is more heavily armoured. it carries a much more powerful gun it carries 16 ATGMs (which, although less powerful than the Hellfires, can be more useful vs IFV and other softer targets by virtue of their number) IN ADDITION to 40 80mm rockets (in 2 B-8 pods) it has a compartment in the rear that can allow it to recover a downed wingman.
 
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sentinel28a    RE:MiG-29 vs F-16 in BVR combat   2/12/2004 3:12:26 PM
"The baseline R-27 may only have a SARH seeker but it is accurate and deadly. The MiG can only track one target at a time, but this isn't a limitation when it comes to using SARH weapons." I disagree. This means the MiG-29 driver is going to be sitting there, steadfastly trying to keep his radar lock on the F-16, while keeping a wary eye out for the two AMRAAMs the F-16 has launched at him. The F-16 can manuever at will, since the AMRAAMs are fire and forget--and they also don't leave a smoke trail. The MiG pilot may never see what kills him. Now an R-77...that's a different story and makes things a little more even. The only problem with the Cobra manuever is that you're stalling the aircraft out. Any fighter pilot would tell you that speed is life. The Cobra would be effective in a close-quarter dogfight where both sides are trying to out-turn the other, but other than that, it makes the opponent a sitting duck. There's also no guarantee that the MiG-29 wouldn't simply fall out of the sky and depart, or worse, tear its wings off. There's a reason why you never see any of the Sukhoi demonstrators doing Cobras with a full combat load. There's also a much easier way to defeat a Doppler--the old "Cuban Turn," a hard, 90 degree turn to break lock. The Nellis aggressors do this regularly to F-15 and F-16 drivers and it works--we learned it the hard way, in combat. You can reacquire and it's primarily a defensive manuever, but it eats up time in a battle where victory is measured in milliseconds. The Fulcrum is a damned good airplane, no question--I think it's better than the Su-27 series, aside from the hybrid Russian/Indian/Israeli Su-30MKIs. I wouldn't want to face one flown by a good pilot. But there must be a reason why MiG-29s have come off second best in every war they've been in--and that's the pilot. BTW, I would consider the Mi-28 and Apache to be equals. Certainly the Mi-28 incorporates lessons learned by the Russians in Afghanistan--or at least, I hope it does.
 
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