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Subject: Air Supremacy; USA vs Russia
human6    12/1/2002 7:02:06 PM
I have been doing a lot of research and it appears that the Russian Su-37 is currently the most technologically advanced plane in the world. I do not want to hear about the JSF or F-22 as they are not in production yet. Besides the Russians have a counter plane to the JSF, the PAK FA or I-2000/Interceptor-2000/Istribityel-2000. http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/janes004.htm
 
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scuttlebut steve    not even close   2/8/2007 9:49:35 PM
first of all, the US air force already has more than 70 F22's with more on the way, so you ARE going to hear about it.  second, the US is scaling down the numbers not because they cant afford it but because the "russian military threat" is a joke and russia has no aircraft that even remotely compares to it.  third, the Eurofighter or the Rafale is more than a match for the Su-37.  Russian radar, AA missile guideance tech, and most of all Russian training programs are far inferior to any found in western europe or the US.  In fact, the navy FA-18F's would do just fine against the Su-37, or any fighter that Russia will put out in the next 15 years.  You are also wrong in thinking that it takes the Russians a short amount of time to develop their own versions of dominant US/European tech.  They never fully caught up with submarines, they never fielded naval surface power comparable to the US, their much feared tanks have turned out to be relative turkeys, and their most advanced warplanes are comparable to what the US air force had 10 years ago.
   Really, this "Oh my god, the Russians/Chinese are developing the next super tank/fighter/sub" crap is really getting old.  fearmongers have blown russian military might out of proportion since the 1950's.  its about time some of you people figure that out.
 
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scuttlebut steve    and another thing   2/8/2007 10:01:40 PM
   also, what is the deal with all of these predictions about the downfall of stealth tech.  Everybody knows that the US has stealth planes in it's arsenal since the late 80's  ( THE 80'S MAN!!!)  last time i checked the only proven way to beat the OLD stealth light bomber ( which uses different and less effective stealth tech as the F22 and F35 ) is to hope that the USAF uses the same flight routes night after night and fire off a bunch of SAM's when you predict it will be up there and hope for a kill (the lone f-117a that has been shot down out of hundreds of deep penetration missions).  stealth aircraft are here to stay folks. 
 
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BadNews    A Little Story   2/8/2007 10:28:39 PM
In 1975, we in the west had still thought the MIG 25 was the premier aircraft in the world, until a defecting pilot flew one to Japan. A Marine Warrant Officer, by the name of FUGAL, let a joint service team of interrogators who mission it was to debrief the defecting pilot. They were astounded by what they learned, the lack of training, the discontent within the Soviet Air Force. Although I was noit there, I know this to be true because the following year as a 21 year old Sgt, CWO3 became my OIC at the 3rd ITU. What was more astounding I was told, was when the CIA and the Air Force Dismantled the craft, they were shocked as to how everything we had heard about it was  shall we say, somewhat exgarated to say the least. This story stuck with me through my entire career, along with many others, the vaunetd BMP so ominious until we discovered the that the rear doors (The Only Means for Infantrymen to escape, were also the fuel tanks, go figure, any one have a match? Or an auto loader on the T72 which required the gun to be raised to max elevation to work properly, sure the ruskies fixed that stuff eventually, but it taught me one lesson ... or my favorite,
 
In the 73 war in between Isreal and Egypt - Isreali F4's and Mirages were wreaking havoc, on MIG 23's, the insensed Russian instructors blamed poor Egyptian pilots and flew a mission with six aircraft themselves against the Ireali's, only five instructors came back...
 
I am not going to bet against the US today or for a long time in a conventional war between US and either Russia or China
 
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Herr_Alvaro       5/2/2007 10:43:21 AM
Greetings gents...
first of I would like to say that I´m Argentino (South Armerican), so I can say that my opinion is not from a US, RUSSIAN citizen point of view, I hope this makes my opinion as objective as possible.
Now, to the matter at hand...
US vs RUSSIA or RUSSIA vs US regarding military techs...
Lets start by saying that both countries posses great technologies and of course, a lot of capable people behind it...
Are the US airplanes better than the Russian because they have spare parts, fuel, and supposed pilot training?, well, some use as hard points on their post that in recents events this has been proven, (i.e. US airplanes against Russian made ones on Afghanistan), also some point the Israel/Egypt conflict as an example fo this... well, let me make my appreciation on this subject,
NONE of this examples is good, the fact that some countries use RUSSIAN equipment does not compares with what the RUSSIAN can do with them, please let me be clear, I´m not saying that the RUSSIAN equipment is flawless and it was the drivers fault, what I mean is that you can´t assure a conflict outcome using anothers results... let me give you an example, link , this happened in the year 2000, a couple of RUSSIAN airplanes got the US Carrier Kitty Hawk of guard, thing that is supposed not possible, due to the ship´s detection systems, but it happened, also it took quite some time for the Carrier personel to ready themselves for battlestations... what does this shows?, do the Russian had better equipment at their disposal?, is the US Navy personel (including the pilots) poorly trainned?... you tell me.
Do you see where I´m pointing at?
When you compare one against one, you have to do it in ecual terms, meaning that if you compare the SU37 with the F22 o 35 you don´t care about the spare parts nor the fuel (the training could be a major factor but we can´t assure which is better), nor which is going into production or is on an experimental stage... you compare the planes, cold facts, which one has better performance a better chance of getting ahead on a real combat situation (fully loaded and ready)... using this parameters I would like to give my personal opinion, I believe that the SU37 has a better performance rate than the F22 and F35, my personal opinion, of course.
Now, why do I think this way?, the F22 and 35 have stealth capabilities that makes them harder to hunt down, correct?, well, since the SU37 is still a working project, and taking in consideration that the RUSSIANs have certainly saw the stealth issue on planes, they will equipt their planes (when they take them into production) with a more capable radar (like the one aviable on the SU27, which, conbined with ground or naval intel are more than capable of detecting stealth planes (please take in consideration the fact that RUSSIA has declared, (as well as RUSSIAN´s made radars users) the detection of US stealth planes link . Having the stealth issue solved, you now rely on the plane´s fighting capabilities, and as stated by most here, the SU37 shows his advantage.
Does this means the SU37 is better?, well, we will have to wait before anyone can asure this with hard evidence (lets hope this evidence doesn´t come from a military conflict but from military exercises).
Another point I would like to make, getting the right budget things could change around the EAST,
what do I mean?
well, if the RUSSIANs had the US military budget they could certainly do incredible things, they showed this during the cold war, as well as the US (I give them both credits), but now the RUSSIAN armed forces are on a short flow of cash so they seem to be picking their battles, check this out
link  New Ballistic missiles
link  US recognition of their will to acquire RUSSIAN tech (Anti-Ship System)
link  - link  -  link  All of this links talk about the new RUSSIAN Anti-Air system
And of course the new advanced fighter (SU37) which in the near future will be aviable... how many, I don´t know, but knowing the RUSSIANS,  they will do quite few.

I recognize the US superior aviability of equipment and funds, but  this doesn´t  necessarely  means better equipment when its compared one o
 
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Herald1234    The proof is in the outcome, amigo.   5/2/2007 12:07:12 PM
Russian equipment when it is handled by competent users is very good.
 
The real world example is India.
 
American equipment when it is handled by idiots is very bad.
 
The real world example is Pakistan.
 
Each nation that builds native gear builds according to its needs.
 
Generally those who purchase American equipment and use it the way it is intended to be used get better results than those who purchase Russian equipment.
 
Does that mean American technology is superior?
 
No.
 
For example, France builds better satellite launchers than the US does, and Britain has radars that are generally superior, but that is not what is at issue here. What is at issue is does Russian equipment used the Russian way perform batter than US equipment used the American way?
 
Battlefield results say no.
 
The fact is that it is the quality of personnel training and the doctrine used that squeezes out of the equipment the most that it can that is the decider as to which is the better technology in a situation..
 
In the two real world examples cited above, India and Pakistan, the Indians used Russian equipment the British way, while the Pakistanis used American equipment the ????????? way. It certainly wasn't the way that American equipment was intended to be used, or the way we trained the Pakistanis to use it. In the air the Pakistanis generally held their own in American aircraft, but on the ground they were slaughtered. The Indians using a mix of British castoffs and second rate Russian gear knew what they were doing. This was even more apparent at sea, where the Indian Navy used Russian gear and just clobbered the hell out of the Pakistanis in the 1971 war.
 
In another real world example where Israelis and Jordanians fought each other in 1967 and both sides used American equipment the way ti was supposed to be used; the fighting was murderous and the honors fairly even with Israeli numbers, superior elan', better British style training, and superior logistics finally prevailling over the Arab Legion in the 67 War when the Israelis took Jerusalem.
 
That is why I hate the fanboy comparisons of Russian vwersus American gear..
 
The machine helps but it is the man who determines whether a Sukhoi or an Eagle prevails, or whether the Klalid class sub is sunk or whether a Brahmaputra class frigate goes to the bottom.   
 
Is a Sukhoi a good fighter? Yes. Would it splash an Eagle? Maybe. But all things being equal including the pilots, the chances for the American in his Eagle within his system using the Eagle the way it is supposed to be used, against the Russian in his Sukhoi, using the Russian system, using the Sukhoi, the way the Russians intended for it to be used; my money is still on the Eagle. Better integrationn into an overall technology base system and air battle doctrine as a result of extensive air combat experience by a fighting air force is opposed to a theoretical technical approach to air combat by a relatively inexperienced air force make the decisive difference here.
 
Practice makes perfect.
 
Herald         
 
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displacedjim    Ola   5/2/2007 10:10:59 PM
 

"let me give you an example, link , this happened in the year 2000, a couple of RUSSIAN airplanes got the US Carrier Kitty Hawk of guard, thing that is supposed not possible, due to the ship´s detection systems, but it happened, also it took quite some time for the Carrier personel to ready themselves for battlestations... what does this shows?, do the Russian had better equipment at their disposal?, is the US Navy personel (including the pilots) poorly trainned?... you tell me."

 

It shows that it is possible during a time of peace to conduct a solitary operation to catch us with our guard down. Assuming Russia could build aircraft carriers with the capabilities ours have and operate them in American waters, we have far greater capability to conduct a similar operation against them. -- DJim

 

 

"When you compare one against one, you have to do it in ecual terms, meaning that if you compare the SU37 with the F22 o 35 you don´t care about the spare parts nor the fuel (the training could be a major factor but we can´t assure which is better), nor which is going into production or is on an experimental stage... you compare the planes, cold facts, which one has better performance a better chance of getting ahead on a real combat situation (fully loaded and ready)"

 "... using this parameters I would like to give my personal opinion, I believe that the SU37 has a better performance rate than the F22 and F35, my personal opinion, of course."

 

 

Yes, if all you are interested in is a fantasy match-up of one aircraft against one aircraft, regardless of whether they even exist in the real world and regardless of how they would actually match up in the real world. Against my better judgement, I will engage in a discussion of one very, very real F-22 versus one almost-imaginary Su-37. -- DJim

 


"Now, why do I think this way?, the F22 and 35 have stealth capabilities that makes them harder to hunt down, correct?, well, since the SU37 is still a working project, and taking in consideration that the RUSSIANs have certainly saw the stealth issue on planes, they will equipt their planes (when they take them into production) with a more capable radar (like the one aviable on the SU27, which, conbined with ground or naval intel are more than capable of detecting stealth planes"

 

 

Hey, what happened to it being one airplane versus one airplane? – DJim

 

 

"(please take in consideration the fact that RUSSIA has declared, (as well as RUSSIAN´s made radars users) the detection of US stealth planes link . Having the stealth issue solved,"

 

 

Yes, that commander did an outstanding job. NO ONE who actually has anything to do with planning missions and actually fighting in our stealth aircraft thinks they are completely invisible or invulnerable. You need to understand that while he only engaged Allied aircraft at short range in order to limit his vulnerability to our SEAD missions, he also could only detect the stealth aircraft at short range but could detect other aircraft at many times that range. If the F-117 had just flown a few kilometers further away he never would have seen it. This hasn't solved the stealth issue for air-to-air combat at all. The F-22 or F-35 will very likely track the Su-37 at 50miles or even much more than that, and will maneuver around the enemy to engage it from a favorable angle. The Su-37 will not be able to track the F-22 unless it flies within a dozen miles or so and does so in front of the Su-37. --DJim

 

 

"you now rely on the plane´s fighting capabilities, and as stated by most here, the SU37 shows his advantage."

 

 

I don't know who said that, but they are sadly misinformed. I'm not aware of a single performance characteristic (aerodynamic or avionic or weapon system or anything else) that makes any difference in combat (or even any pretty but useless airshow stunts) in which the Su-37 can beat the F-22. Have you been reading and watching some of the informati

 
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Herr_Alvaro       5/5/2007 10:50:57 AM
to: displacedjim

first of all thanks for the welcome, its good to see that there is place where you can learn and discuss about military issues, now if I may comment about your points...

The SU37 is not a fantasy plane, its on his test fase at the moment so comparing it to the F22 or 35 is not wrong, the only thing that variates is the fact that its not on full production but the plane is fully operational in all of its variants.

When I said that using advanced radar along with the radars of ships or ground bases to target the F22 I didn´t thought it would be taken as extra help for the plane, especially taking in consideration that all warplanes uses external help for their targeting systems, GPS, updated AWAKS intel, etc... I don´t think it still exist the ONE on ONE concept in a DOGFIGHT when speaking of data. My idea of course.

Well I guess thats all,
again thanks for the welcome.

adios

 
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Fluffykiwi       2/6/2012 6:42:55 AM
Personally I believe the Russians make excellent gear! As do the Americans! However my biggest fear would be that this Russian technology has been sold cheap as chips to a country that sure as hell has the fuel, money, and manpower to back it up! So let's hope the shit don't go down or Chinese sausage will be on the menu for the whole pacific rim!
 
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