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Subject: Air Supremacy; USA vs Russia
human6    12/1/2002 7:02:06 PM
I have been doing a lot of research and it appears that the Russian Su-37 is currently the most technologically advanced plane in the world. I do not want to hear about the JSF or F-22 as they are not in production yet. Besides the Russians have a counter plane to the JSF, the PAK FA or I-2000/Interceptor-2000/Istribityel-2000. http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/janes004.htm
 
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Ozamist    Russia has Stealth also   1/31/2005 5:19:23 AM
Russia has Claimed they have stealth from sum space mission thingy anyway in other words the russkys said all they have to do is apply it to the vehicle it be tank mabe aircraft what not and this was being worked on since 1980s now if you ask me there not lying if we would fight russia and dont say russia is not a weak country russia would prove a considerabel allie because you have to think China would get involved if we would hit first are they would but russia has been ahead of usa in air supremacy they just havent had the funds to make it the best thing is for us to be allies with russia and learn what they have :D
 
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   RE:plasma stealth   1/31/2005 6:08:43 AM
The Russians as I recall claimed to have developed practical cold pleasma signature masking techniques. The USAF has looked into this same subject in earnest, as has NASA, and their determination has been that: A) Cold plasma requires a great deal of power to generate in sufficient quantities to mask a vehicle of any considerable mass. Too much for conventional vehicle auxilary power plants. B) Cold plasma is extremely difficult to maintain within the atmosphere. It has a tendency to want to heat up (alot!). Research with it in reactors focuses on containment within electromagnetic fields, which is not an option with aircraft. C) Plasma generation is extremely hazardous to organic payloads, as it involves extremely veiolent reactions between a superconcentrated burst of high frequency microwaves and a gas. D) Plasma sheaths suffer from the same paradox plaguing sci-fi "shields." While on, the aircrafts own electromagnetic systems (navigation, communication, fire control) are nonfunctional. In light of this, I view Russian "plasma stealth" as vaporware until proven otherwise..
 
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misko       1/22/2007 10:39:30 PM

 

Your all delusional, The rubbish your talking is hilarious let me break down an engagement between and F-22A and an Su-30MKI (not the most advanced) to demonstrate exactly how close these 2 aircraft are in terms of capacity. The engagement is a head to head battle with no other assets in the air. 2 lone aircraft headed at each other, a highly likely scenario as the Su-30MKI is a very capable missile boat and can take down every other aircraft in the sky with ease.

To begin with the F-22A would be flying with its radar scanning and the Su-30MKI would not. The reason for this is that the F-22A can most likely detect the Su-30MKI's radar and fire a missile at the source negating the possibility of it doing the same.

If the Su-30MKI's RWR detects the F-22A's search radar then it wins the engagement as it can carry more missiles . which also have better performance. It would be able to fire at the F-22A first and would have a higher chance of destroying it.

However if the F-22A's "low probability of intercept" radar is not detected then the F-22A would detect the Su-30MKI's airframe at around 130km. It would be able to fire at about 50km. However if it were to do so then it would be easy for the Su-30MKI to evade the missiles.

This is because the 'no escape radius' of an AMRAAM is only about 30km. If the F-22A approached to that distance to fire it would be detectable by the Su-30MKI's IRST pod meaning it could fire R-73M's at the F-22A, almost guaranteeing a kill.

However . if the F-22A decided to not approach from the front it would have a bigger advantage. It could probably approach to within 30km from 90 degrees off the Su-30MKI's angle of attack and fire missiles. Naturally, firing missiles would make it stick out like a sore thumb on radar but the Su-30MKI's radar only covers the front 60 degrees. However it can twist that coverage by 60 degrees meaning that if the F-22A was unlucky it would be detected firing the missiles.

But in order for the F-22A to be able to achieve a kill like that every time it would take a lot of solid mission planning and wishful thinking. I'd personally give it a 3-1 ratio at best in this situation.

In more complex situations however that ratio would diminish as the F-22A would have to worry about other assets in the sky. Given that there are currently around 100 Su-30MKI's in service and around 20 F-22A's the balance is in the Su-30MKI's favour. In fact if they were to engage each other now the Su-30MKI's would probably lose fewer then 25 aircraft.

As for the total load of crap claimed about the EF-2000's performance; heres a reality check. The EF-2000 can be detected by the Su-30MKI's passive detection OR active search at over 130km. It can be fired at using the KS-172 at ranges close to 400km with a no escape area of 200km. With that sort of flight profile the missile will have reached the EF-2000 before it could even fire a return volley of missiles and the Su-30MKI could guide the KS-172 into the EF-2000 to ensure it doesn't attempt to evade.

 
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Herald1234    Interesting science fiction.    1/22/2007 11:00:08 PM
I know little about air combat, but the  above post is just fanboy.

First of all there is no such thing as a fair fight, solo.

Second of all, air combat is three dimensional and the sky has terrain effects[weather] that affects electronics.

Third of all, ignoring ECM advantages totally is ludricrous.

And fourth of all, open source data is worthless when one discusses no escape zones and energy advantages which vary with altitude  advantage, relative aspect and bearing, etc from moment to moment.

For example, all things being equal, I doubt that a Rafale with full western EW support, and the altitude[energy] advantage in your ridiculous setup, would have much trouble with a Su-30+ derivative in a single fighter duel.

Its a stupid pilot, Russian, French, or American[or even Iranian] who fights the way you describe.

Herald

 

 
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DarthAmerica    Misko reply   1/22/2007 11:03:00 PM
No offense but don't quit your day job. You analysis is crap. What are you basing your conclusions on? I already know its not industry or military experience. Again, no offense, just being honest.



Thanks
DA





 
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boris the romanian    DA   2/6/2007 7:20:54 AM
Leave Misko alone! He's right in saying that the Su-30MKI outclasses F-22, but not because of avionics, RCS, or SA, but rather because it's a faster aircraft!
 
Remember, MiG-31 is better than both types put together because it can actually reach Mach 3 when restricted to a conformal loadout. Imagine the advantages that brings!
 
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Softwar       2/6/2007 9:17:38 AM

Leave Misko alone! He's right in saying that the Su-30MKI outclasses F-22, but not because of avionics, RCS, or SA, but rather because it's a faster aircraft!

 

Remember, MiG-31 is better than both types put together because it can actually reach Mach 3 when restricted to a conformal loadout. Imagine the advantages that brings!


The speed advantage is that you will run into a missile faster.  The MiG-31 is designed as a bomber/cruise missile interceptor - it is not an air superiority machine for dogfighting.  The wings will fall off if you try a 9 g turn to get nose on for a shot.  Against an F-15 its only option is to run and pray that an Amraam doesn't hit.
 
High speed (Mach 3+) is a straight line thing and its rarely used in a2a combat.  If your assumption were true the MiG-25 would have been a world class dog fighter - instead its a lumbering stainless steel slug with a radar cross section of the Empire State building.  Missiles travel lots faster that current manned aircraft and they can turn at 30+ gs above Mach 3.
Herald and Darth are right - limiting oneself to a classic one-on-one engagement is so rare these days as to be virtually impossible.  Add in AWACs, ECM, and integrated air defenses and you are STARTING to get close to the real battlefield.  Still, Russia is nearly a generation behind the west in aircraft.  They have not fielded anything close to the F-22.  Even the demonstrators (Su-37) are beyond practical reach due to budget (or lack of). 
 
In addition, the real guts of the Russian planes are inferior.  Take the Indian orders of MiG-29 and SU-30 aircraft for examples.  These planes were outfitted with western avionics for a reason.  Even then - which of these planes has AESA radars?  I can name three in the US arsenal now - F-15, F-18 and F-22. 
 
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displacedjim       2/8/2007 1:19:02 AM
Boris was joking.  And the MiG-31's wings will fall off/fuselage break (or at least they'll bend beyond repair) long before a pilot could get to 9Gs.
 
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KlubMarcus       2/8/2007 1:32:00 AM
Anyone who thinks that the Su-37 can compete against the F-22 needs to lay off the crackpipe! The Su-37 is not stealthy and it's a HUGE fighter. It's longer, taller, and wider than an F-15 and is NOWHERE near as stealthy as an F-22. The Su-37's thrust-vectoring nozzles/tail are not designed to reduce signature at all, the F-22's are. The Su-37's electronics are not built for low-emissions, the F-22's are. There are very few Su-37's and very few Su-37 qualified pilots while the F-22 is on front-line production with pilots in training for combat deployment. If you want to compare the Su-37 against a US counterpart, go with the F-15. The Su-37 can beat the F-15, on paper anyway. But the US will still win out in the end because there are a LOT MORE F-15's with pilots and spare parts out there than the Su-37 can shake a stick at! Plus, there's the unsurpassed combat record of the F-15.
 
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scuttlebut steve    not even close   2/8/2007 9:49:35 PM
first of all, the US air force already has more than 70 F22's with more on the way, so you ARE going to hear about it.  second, the US is scaling down the numbers not because they cant afford it but because the "russian military threat" is a joke and russia has no aircraft that even remotely compares to it.  third, the Eurofighter or the Rafale is more than a match for the Su-37.  Russian radar, AA missile guideance tech, and most of all Russian training programs are far inferior to any found in western europe or the US.  In fact, the navy FA-18F's would do just fine against the Su-37, or any fighter that Russia will put out in the next 15 years.  You are also wrong in thinking that it takes the Russians a short amount of time to develop their own versions of dominant US/European tech.  They never fully caught up with submarines, they never fielded naval surface power comparable to the US, their much feared tanks have turned out to be relative turkeys, and their most advanced warplanes are comparable to what the US air force had 10 years ago.
   Really, this "Oh my god, the Russians/Chinese are developing the next super tank/fighter/sub" crap is really getting old.  fearmongers have blown russian military might out of proportion since the 1950's.  its about time some of you people figure that out.
 
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