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Subject: Another Israeli Loss
Sambation    1/18/2009 3:24:09 PM
Israel managed, as a friend put it, to snatch defeat out the jaws of victory. What was accomplished? A leg-tripping of Hamas, worth 3 months of waiting time for it to rebuild, replenish, rejuvenate. At best, this was a skin-peel for the terror group. There were very few declared objectives for this "war". Stopping the rockets was the first: Fail. Returning Shalit as secondary: Fail. Stopping weapons smuggling: Fail. And among the unspoken objectives Significantly strengthen Fatah relative Hamas: Fail. There might be only one win here -- a win, once again, for the political echelon: Barak/Labor strengthened their polling numbers, and Livni/Kadima shored up theirs. The country learned much tactically from Leb06; it learned nothing strategically, even less politically. This was just Lebanon v2.1
 
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PlatypusMaximus       1/22/2009 10:15:08 AM
If nothing else, the price of a Grad rocket must now include the rocket and a police station, at very least..
 
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The Lizard King       1/23/2009 5:17:49 AM
ttp://www.spacewar.com/reports...
 
Gaza, Georgia And Beyond Part One

File photo: Tanks in Georgia. Photo courtesy of AFP.
by Martin Sieff
Washington (UPI) Jan 22, 2009
Did Russia win or lose its five-day war in Georgia, and did Israel win or lose its three-week war in Gaza? The answers in both cases lie on the political and strategic levels, not in the areas of tactics and ground combat.

It may be argued that Russia failed and Israel succeeded, or that both nations failed in their longer-term strategic goals, because pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili continues to rule Georgia just as Hamas, the Iranian-backed Islamic Resistance Movement, continues to run Gaza.

Indeed, Israeli military losses in Gaza were far lighter, with only 13 killed, than Russian military casualties in Georgia, and Israel did not lose any expensive bombers or other aircraft as Russia did in the brief Caucasus conflict of last August.

There were, however, striking similarities between the two conflicts. Neither Georgia's leaders, nor those of Hamas, ever believed they would face the massive and sustained military offensive that hit them. Russia and Israel both enjoyed total tactical surprise when they launched their attacks.

The leaders of both Georgia and Hamas were dealt rude shocks. The Georgians imagined, indeed, that thanks to significant infusions of modern military equipment from the United States, they would be able to blunt any Russian ground attack. Instead, their military forces were almost contemptuously swept aside by the Russian army. Hamas similarly put up a negligible military performance against the Israeli army.

Both the Georgians and Hamas believed the larger power they were taunting and defying would never dare to attack them and that even if it did, international pressure and outrage would force it to a halt within days or even hours. But both Georgia and Hamas were quickly disillusioned of this fantasy.

There was nothing the 27-nation European Union and the United States could do to slow or halt the Russian military juggernaut until the Kremlin drew its own stop lines after sweeping through one-third of the mountainous, forested former Soviet republic in the Caucasus. Israeli ground forces operated with impunity in Gaza, and the huge wave of popular demonstrations across the Arab world that Hamas had expected never materialized.

Nevertheless, although Saakashvili survived the Russia onslaught against his country and the Hamas leadership survived in Gaza, their political prospects look very different.

Saakashvili in Georgia has just lost the one really powerful friend he had in the world, strongly pro-Georgian U.S. President George W. Bush. New U.S. President Barack Obama and his incoming secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, already have made clear they want to reduce tensions with Russia and negotiate a new arms control treaty within the next year to replace START, which runs out in December.

In such a political climate, Saakashvili knows the best he can hope for is survival. The Obama administration will not push to get Georgia admitted into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, as Bush unsuccessfully did. U.S. Undersecretary of State Daniel Fried, who was the enthusiastic Bush point man to embrace Georgia, will not retain his position in the new Obama administration.

Saakashvili therefore will continue to face a hostile and emboldened Russia. Hamas certainly will face a far more hostile and potentially dangerous leader in Israel if former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu wins the Israeli general election on Feb. 10, as he is widely expected to, from Labor Party leader Ehud Barak and Kadima Party leader Tzipi Livni, both of whom showed indecision and confusion, along with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, in leading Israel in the Gaza operations.

However, Obama and Clinton in Washington can be counted on to act forcefully to rein in any future Israeli government, even a Likud one, whereas Bush gave the Israelis a free hand. That was why Olmert and his lieutenants pulled Israeli forces out of Gaza only days before Obama took office.

(Part 2: Hamas' rising prospects and Saakashvili's growing dangers)

 
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Vulture       1/23/2009 11:58:25 AM

However, Obama and Clinton in Washington can be counted on to act forcefully to rein in any future Israeli government, even a Likud one, whereas Bush gave the Israelis a free hand. That was why Olmert and his lieutenants pulled Israeli forces out of Gaza only days before Obama took office.


Can they really, after what Obama said to Mitchell?
 And I thought the  reason Olmert pulled out was not to have his invasion overshadowing the Obama inaugaration, not that he thought Obama/Clinton would "reign" him in.     Besides Olmert's problem was with GWB and the IRan raid, not with the US per se.
 
So is there a consensus that the article is even mildly accurate?

 
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Sambation       1/24/2009 11:54:35 AM
I don't disagree with you on this point, Shirrush, but the description you give of the drawdown of the war
is a perfect example of the pisspoor state of Israeli leadership and politics. Europe muscled Israel into a "cease-fire"? Or else what? A not nice letter from the UN? Another slurry of "you're very bad, Israel, very bad." Well, we got that anyhow. Might as well have not acted like we owe something to everyone except ourselves.
 
I wouldn't be so certain that Gaza II will be similar to Fallujah II. Hamas may have learned as many lessons from Gaza 08/09 as the IDF learned from Leb06. One thing we can count on: we will see.

For important strategic reference see here: link


 
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Ezekiel    let the games begin   1/29/2009 12:50:34 PM
4 rockets, a dead soldier, a still kidnapped soldier, a us envoy that see's the settlements as the reason for no peace and a still breathing Hamas that is now battle hardened and adapting.
 
I await feb 10th and the hoped for boogie yalon taking the reins of the defense establishment. Until then don't hold your breath for a robust IDF that is in the process of destroying Islamic fundamentalist scum.
 
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