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Subject: Another Israeli Loss
Sambation    1/18/2009 3:24:09 PM
Israel managed, as a friend put it, to snatch defeat out the jaws of victory. What was accomplished? A leg-tripping of Hamas, worth 3 months of waiting time for it to rebuild, replenish, rejuvenate. At best, this was a skin-peel for the terror group.

There were very few declared objectives for this "war".
Stopping the rockets was the first: Fail.
Returning Shalit as secondary: Fail.
Stopping weapons smuggling: Fail.

And among the unspoken objectives
Significantly strengthen Fatah relative Hamas: Fail.

There might be only one win here -- a win, once again, for the political echelon: Barak/Labor strengthened their polling numbers, and Livni/Kadima shored up theirs.

The country learned much tactically from Leb06; it learned nothing strategically, even less politically. This was just Lebanon v2.1
 
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HIPAR       1/18/2009 7:09:45 PM
They would have needed to totally reduced Gaza to rubble and killed the vast majority of it's population to accomplish victory over Hamas.  That's clearly not an option open to a 'civilized' nation.
 
---  CHAS
 
 
 
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Sambation       1/19/2009 7:43:20 AM
Polling indicates that the war might have been a backfire for Labor and Kadmia:
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292899632&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
 
But who knows -- February 11 will tell.
 
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Ezekiel       1/19/2009 1:14:32 PM
This should be no shock to anyone...I refrained from commenting on the SP about the Gaza fight, precisely b/c I believed this was going to be the end result. AN Israeli leadership that prevents victory, settling for cosmetic victory, short term thinking and attempting to placate an implacable global opinion.
 
The same people that delivered the failure in Lebanon in 2006, outdid themselves this time around, having victory in their grasp and selling the soldiers, civilians and the rest the world short.
 
The Kadima party was the party of disengagement, it should not be a surprise that the same people that created Hamastan wouldn't be the ones to destroy it.
 
I am disgusted...this wasn't a Military failure...it is far worse, it is a complete failure of leadership!
 
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FJV       1/19/2009 1:31:10 PM
This was to be expected.
 
On the plus side though, it does make it easier for us to deal with Iran.

 
 
 
 
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battar    Objectively speaking   1/19/2009 3:10:30 PM
Returning Shalit wasn't an objective. It isn't achievable in this kind of conflict, unless you do it the Russian way, i.e, kidnap all members of top Hamas leaders families - especially the children - and hold them to ransom.
Hamas, like Monty Pythons black knight, will declare victory even if you were to blast the Gaza strip to outer space.
You will never get them to stop hating you - its part of their religion. Religious belief beats high explosives hands down.
 
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Shioc       1/19/2009 8:05:07 PM
Perhaps Isreal should take a page from Sharons playbook.  He started killing the leadership slowly and then
gradually increased the attacks as the rest of the world got bored with the conflict.
 
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Sambation       1/20/2009 5:42:41 AM
I think Israel is unfortunately very much still playing from Sharon's playbook. They just can't decipher the old man's handwriting too well.
 
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The Lizard King    War & Peace   1/20/2009 6:47:13 AM
Peace with Palestinians is would be a big blow to Isreal.  See South Africa...
 
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Vulture       1/20/2009 1:12:32 PM
Why do you assume that the "declared objectives" were the IDF's original objectives?  We all know both sides battle in the media, and wage information warfare.   So how do you know that is what Israel wanted to accomplish.
 
 
Do you know what all they actually did in Gaza.  Do we know what the agreement was in Washington over the Egypitan Border?  Do we know what actions Iran took in support of Gaza.  Hell do we even know what restrictions that Saudi Arabia put on their one billion dollars of aid?  If it PA only funds or does Hamas get it directly?
 
Just like a presidency, the details don't really come  out till afterwards.  And I have a really hard time after Lebanon in '06 to think that the IDF would "fail" in their own goals.
 


 
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Shirrush    Whoa there a little...   1/20/2009 2:38:35 PM
This Cast Lead operation had run its course, and could not possibly have been continued
without the landlord's approval. He was absent, waiting to hand his seat to his younger and
handsomer replacement, and the Europeans took charge instead, which is why Israel could not
possibly have been allowed a victory, and why the HaMA"s was rescued at the last minute
from its impending demise. Never mind. Next time around, in a few months time, we'll have
a new elected government instead of the weak caretaker one we have now, and there'll be a possibility
to finish the job of removing this Iranain-Jihadi abscess from our country's bottom.
Falluja 2004 was concluded at the second attempt, wasn't it? The IDF has certainly been reading
 from that very notebook, particularly if you look at the tactics employed, so there's still hope, isn't there?
In the meantime, it has become clear to us that our IDF is a bit less lame than what we suspected it was, that
our civil defense is up to it's task, and that we're a little bit less at each other's throats than what we're accustomed to in ordinary electoral periods.
Plus, we've found Methane, lots of it, offshore Haifa. How convenient!
On a lighter note, it also seems to me that we're going Catholic. Hey, Battar, habibee, have a look
at this, you'll love it!
 
Now, if you will, let us discuss serious matters.
 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       1/22/2009 10:15:08 AM
If nothing else, the price of a Grad rocket must now include the rocket and a police station, at very least..
 
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The Lizard King       1/23/2009 5:17:49 AM
ttp://www.spacewar.com/reports/Gaza_Georgia_And_Beyond_Part_One_999.html
 
Gaza, Georgia And Beyond Part One

File photo: Tanks in Georgia. Photo courtesy of AFP.
by Martin Sieff
Washington (UPI) Jan 22, 2009
Did Russia win or lose its five-day war in Georgia, and did Israel win or lose its three-week war in Gaza? The answers in both cases lie on the political and strategic levels, not in the areas of tactics and ground combat.

It may be argued that Russia failed and Israel succeeded, or that both nations failed in their longer-term strategic goals, because pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili continues to rule Georgia just as Hamas, the Iranian-backed Islamic Resistance Movement, continues to run Gaza.

Indeed, Israeli military losses in Gaza were far lighter, with only 13 killed, than Russian military casualties in Georgia, and Israel did not lose any expensive bombers or other aircraft as Russia did in the brief Caucasus conflict of last August.

There were, however, striking similarities between the two conflicts. Neither Georgia's leaders, nor those of Hamas, ever believed they would face the massive and sustained military offensive that hit them. Russia and Israel both enjoyed total tactical surprise when they launched their attacks.

The leaders of both Georgia and Hamas were dealt rude shocks. The Georgians imagined, indeed, that thanks to significant infusions of modern military equipment from the United States, they would be able to blunt any Russian ground attack. Instead, their military forces were almost contemptuously swept aside by the Russian army. Hamas similarly put up a negligible military performance against the Israeli army.

Both the Georgians and Hamas believed the larger power they were taunting and defying would never dare to attack them and that even if it did, international pressure and outrage would force it to a halt within days or even hours. But both Georgia and Hamas were quickly disillusioned of this fantasy.

There was nothing the 27-nation European Union and the United States could do to slow or halt the Russian military juggernaut until the Kremlin drew its own stop lines after sweeping through one-third of the mountainous, forested former Soviet republic in the Caucasus. Israeli ground forces operated with impunity in Gaza, and the huge wave of popular demonstrations across the Arab world that Hamas had expected never materialized.

Nevertheless, although Saakashvili survived the Russia onslaught against his country and the Hamas leadership survived in Gaza, their political prospects look very different.

Saakashvili in Georgia has just lost the one really powerful friend he had in the world, strongly pro-Georgian U.S. President George W. Bush. New U.S. President Barack Obama and his incoming secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, already have made clear they want to reduce tensions with Russia and negotiate a new arms control treaty within the next year to replace START, which runs out in December.

In such a political climate, Saakashvili knows the best he can hope for is survival. The Obama administration will not push to get Georgia admitted into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, as Bush unsuccessfully did. U.S. Undersecretary of State Daniel Fried, who was the enthusiastic Bush point man to embrace Georgia, will not retain his position in the new Obama administration.

Saakashvili therefore will continue to face a hostile and emboldened Russia. Hamas certainly will face a far more hostile and potentially dangerous leader in Israel if former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu wins the Israeli general election on Feb. 10, as he is widely expected to, from Labor Party leader Ehud Barak and Kadima Party leader Tzipi Livni, both of whom showed indecision and confusion, along with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, in leading Israel in the Gaza operations.

However, Obama and Clinton in Washington can be counted on to act forcefully to rein in any future Israeli government, even a Likud one, whereas Bush gave the Israelis a free hand. That was why Olmert and his lieutenants pulled Israeli forces out of Gaza only days before Obama took office.

(Part 2: Hamas' rising prospects and Saakashvili's growing dangers)

 
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Vulture       1/23/2009 11:58:25 AM

However, Obama and Clinton in Washington can be counted on to act forcefully to rein in any future Israeli government, even a Likud one, whereas Bush gave the Israelis a free hand. That was why Olmert and his lieutenants pulled Israeli forces out of Gaza only days before Obama took office.


Can they really, after what Obama said to Mitchell?
 And I thought the  reason Olmert pulled out was not to have his invasion overshadowing the Obama inaugaration, not that he thought Obama/Clinton would "reign" him in.     Besides Olmert's problem was with GWB and the IRan raid, not with the US per se.
 
So is there a consensus that the article is even mildly accurate?

 
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Sambation       1/24/2009 11:54:35 AM
I don't disagree with you on this point, Shirrush, but the description you give of the drawdown of the war
is a perfect example of the pisspoor state of Israeli leadership and politics. Europe muscled Israel into a "cease-fire"? Or else what? A not nice letter from the UN? Another slurry of "you're very bad, Israel, very bad." Well, we got that anyhow. Might as well have not acted like we owe something to everyone except ourselves.
 
I wouldn't be so certain that Gaza II will be similar to Fallujah II. Hamas may have learned as many lessons from Gaza 08/09 as the IDF learned from Leb06. One thing we can count on: we will see.

For important strategic reference see here: link


 
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Ezekiel    let the games begin   1/29/2009 12:50:34 PM
4 rockets, a dead soldier, a still kidnapped soldier, a us envoy that see's the settlements as the reason for no peace and a still breathing Hamas that is now battle hardened and adapting.
 
I await feb 10th and the hoped for boogie yalon taking the reins of the defense establishment. Until then don't hold your breath for a robust IDF that is in the process of destroying Islamic fundamentalist scum.
 
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