It's interesting to see where this thread is bearing, considering what it was its initial subject.

 

In any case, speculaing about an Israeli blue navy, I think it would be necessary to frame the strategic problem as a firs step.

It is not very probable that in the forseable future Israel would be confronted with the necessity of displaying a huge sea denial capability, because it is unprobable that it will have any big maritime dependant country as a potential adversary. On the other hand, an instrument to guarantee the continuity and the functionality of the far sea lanes could become a necessity for the Jewish state in the future. What if the future challanges for Israel don't come only from its borders on land but also from its distant, and presently undefendable, sae borders ? I don't think, but that's just an opinion, that the Israelians would like to leave their defence completely in the hands of someone else. Cooperation yes, support yes, but it seems to me that so far, the Israeli strategic minds have always liked to have the proper operations in their own hands and not in someone else's.

The fact that Israel has been fighting low intensity battles in the last 3 decades, does not allow, like it doesn't allow any western power for the matter, to think that any conventional threat is gone forever.

From the practical point of view, I don't think that Israel would have any unsurmontable problems to understand, concieve and operate a high sea fleet balanced in all its components, including  SSNs and even SSBNs if necessary. Some sources in Italy  give already Israel working on a SSBN project, If these claims were correct, I wouldn't be surprised, given the challenges that the jewish state might be called to face in the future.

 As for the SSNs, let us not forget that the best job for a SSN is to hunt other SSNs, so it doesn't have to be a sea denial platform at all costs.

One could argue that the Israelis don't have the experience. They would learn and learn fast, as Liddle Hart always claimed tham to be his fastest learning students. Someone raised the economic problem. I think it's smoke in the eyes. If a ridicoulus military spender like Italy has a decent - not good but decent - blueish navy, I think that Israel can have balanced good fleet. A bigger problem would be the creation of a true interoperability between Navy and Airforce on the sea, but here I don't adventure myself into any evaluations, because I don't have any idea about the institutional realtionship among the different Israeli armed forces. I know for sure that even a country with a fair naval tradition like mine, still has problems with that and has is a lot to do yet on that peculiar field. 

 

respectfully

luigi.delta

I guess what you are saying is that in the heat of our verbal battle your arguments die....That's fine, i'll accept defeat. I'll also accept the perfect israeli answer to all problems, your "kacha." Maybe next time you will answer with another native rejoinder like "yehiyeh be'seder" or my favorite "ma la'asot."

As for my status in terms of Israel and myself, just let me say this...There is much you do not know. But what I can tell you is that I have a deep, diverse and first hand knowledge of Israel....and my sacrifices made for Israel has not only been the proverbial diasporah dollar. I'm not saying this b/c i want to be elusive or mysterious, but so that you understand that the consumate Israeli barb thrown at the

There is no real reason "why" for Israel to create a major navy.  Focus more on the why not.

1)  Israel has some very real, very dangerous enemies.  Unlike 18th century Britain, these have easy land routes to Israel.  A major naval force could do nothing that the same amount of money spent on land and air forces could not, in the event of an attack across Israel's borders.

 

2)  Warships today provide mobile platforms for aircraft, sensors, and missiles.  Only in the most unusual of circumstances does a warship actually enter a fight.  It's purpose is to carry those aircraft, sensors, and missiles across the ocean to a place where they are needed.  Israel already has a perfectly positioned platform for aircraft, sensors, and missiles, it's called Israel, and it's unsinkable.

 

3)  The ocean trade protection idea makes no sense.  Israel's merchant shipping beyond Israeli territorial water is already protected by default, by the US and NATO.  Merchant ships today don't belong to one nation and act in support of one nation like they used to.  Israel's biggest merchant carrier is Zim.  It owns about 100 ships.   Israel's ENTIRE merchant marine is officially, 18 ships.  So when  a Zim ship is carrying containers from 12 African nations to Europe, and is flying the Panamanian flag with a Greek-Russian-Philipino crew, is it an Israeli ship?  Who is securing it's freedom?  We are.  The US, and its allies, are the police force of the oceans.

 

4)  Money is not infinite.  Even for Israel.  Money spent here isn't buying new tanks or aircraft- the proven defenders of Israel.

 

5)  Assume, just for a moment, that one of those Zim ships was hijacked.  It could be anywhere in the world.  Where is Israel's small blue water surface navy going to be?  A month away?  Two? 

 

6)  Supposing Israel did field one major battlegroup.  The obvious question, then: where would it be?  If it is far away, then it can't be sustained forever, and in the even of a major crisis theatening Israel, assuming it was "on station", the opponent would simply wait it out.  If there was an Israeli battle group off Iran's coast, for example, Iran would simply stall diplomatically long enough to for the battle group to return home.  To maintain a continuous presence, you need multiple rotations of battlegroups, and this is way beyond what they can afford.

 

7)  We don't want Israel to have it.  Think about it.  If Israel were to have a serious, blue water deployable battle group, then any enemy of Israel would have to assume that in the event of war, Israel would use it.

Shirrush - The Dolphin subs are NOT decomissioned. However, when there are only three of them, and they are such complex little toys, there will always be one up on the jacks in the shop for an oil change. So it is unlikely that you will ever have more that 2 in operational readiness at any one time. It was the same with the Gal class subs.

 

Ezekial - Taking the fight to the enemy, deterrence, world power - yes indeed, but the IDF have chosen to do all that with the air-force, not the Navy. Becasue the air force can point north east and south but the Navy only goes west.