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Subject: Avigdor Lieberman
Herc the Merc    11/1/2006 3:49:17 PM
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jastayme3       3/11/2007 4:47:16 AM
As for the messianic beliefs.... sorry to let you know, but judaism is congruent to the belief in the messiah, it was the first to create such an archtype and is the reason that the jews didn't except Jesus and assimilate b/c of its belief in a messiah that wasn't Jesus. The idea,  that those that have faith in the torah are synonymous with crazy speaks of a secular finaticism that is as ignorant as the fundamentalists you seek to repute.
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By the by, Ease, this is one thing that seemed odd  to me. Why is it resented when Christian converts say they are still Jews, but not resented when atheists do so-after all "Here O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one" is far more unambiguous then any of the arguments for or against Jesus?
Ok you can say historical grudge, and all, but a Jew who accepts Jesus is not thereby accepting The Grand Inquisitor-he may think he has just gained another reason to be mad at him.


 
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Shirrush    Ezekiel and Jastayme   3/11/2007 3:45:04 PM
I really like you guys. Why don't we go for drinks sometime in Tel-Aviv and indulge in Israel's national sport, arguing?

Hetzkel, all the points you're making are coherent and based on true knowledge, but you're missing mine:
Aren't Christianity, and the more than 10 centuries of sorrow and persecution it brought upon us, the most pernicious and perennial products of Jewish messianism itself?
Hasn't Judaism evolved in 30 centuries, and weeded out or defanged most of its truly barbarous angles, such as the stoning of adulterers and  homosexuals, done away with its parasitic priesthood class, and compiled the Talmud and the Commentaries? Isn't it time to shed the extinction-level threat of messianism as well, or at least to yank it from its literal interpretations and stow it safely in the spirituality n' mysticism drawer?

Jastayme, since the mortal conflict between the Jewish People and the Churches of Jesus has been mostly dealt with in the good direction, that of reconciliation, even before you and I were born, you're probably not aware of the depth of the animosity that existed between us until very recently. If you don't believe me, read Ernest Renan.... It's late 19th century French Catholic philosophy, and it is at the base of the mid 20th's racist theories.
In this context, Jews made, and are still making, a distinction between the Epikoros, the unbeliever, and the Meshumad, the apostate. While the first is viewed as a somewhat erring eccentric and sometimes risks as much as a temporary excommunication (see Baruch Spinoza), the latter crossed the lines to the enemy, so to speak, and is viewed as a traitor that excluded himself from Israel. He is not to be executed, like the Moslem that leaves Islam. He's simply not one of us anymore, and his excommunication is therefore automatic, unless he stands a chance of becoming the next Pope, of course...
In Judaism, loyalty is paramount. Faith, as per Maimonides' Thirteen Articles..., is viewed as a personal matter best left to personal choice, at least in the current I belong too, Western (Republican) Orthodoxy, that indeed may not be as mainstream as I've been brought up to think...
A Jew may believe or not, that's his own problem. As long as he belongs, and worships no other gods.
 


 
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jastayme3       3/11/2007 4:04:51 PM

I really like you guys. Why don't we go for drinks sometime in Tel-Aviv and indulge in Israel's national sport, arguing?

Hetzkel, all the points you're making are coherent and based on true knowledge, but you're missing mine:
Aren't Christianity, and the more than 10 centuries of sorrow and persecution it brought upon us, the most pernicious and perennial products of Jewish messianism itself?
Hasn't Judaism evolved in 30 centuries, and weeded out or defanged most of its truly barbarous angles, such as the stoning of adulterers and  homosexuals, done away with its parasitic priesthood class, and compiled the Talmud and the Commentaries? Isn't it time to shed the extinction-level threat of messianism as well, or at least to yank it from its literal interpretations and stow it safely in the spirituality n' mysticism drawer?

Jastayme, since the mortal conflict between the Jewish People and the Churches of Jesus has been mostly dealt with in the good direction, that of reconciliation, even before you and I were born, you're probably not aware of the depth of the animosity that existed between us until very recently. If you don't believe me, read Ernest Renan.... It's late 19th century French Catholic philosophy, and it is at the base of the mid 20th's racist theories.
In this context, Jews made, and are still making, a distinction between the Epikoros, the unbeliever, and the Meshumad, the apostate. While the first is viewed as a somewhat erring eccentric and sometimes risks as much as a temporary excommunication (see Baruch Spinoza), the latter crossed the lines to the enemy, so to speak, and is viewed as a traitor that excluded himself from Israel. He is not to be executed, like the Moslem that leaves Islam. He's simply not one of us anymore, and his excommunication is therefore automatic, unless he stands a chance of becoming the next Pope, of course...
In Judaism, loyalty is paramount. Faith, as per Maimonides' Thirteen Articles..., is viewed as a personal matter best left to personal choice, at least in the current I belong too, Western (Republican) Orthodoxy, that indeed may not be as mainstream as I've been brought up to think...
A Jew may believe or not, that's his own problem. As long as he belongs, and worships no other gods.
 


In a sort of way I understand. But it is putting community ahead of the search for truth. And if you are wrong and I am right then you are shackleing yourselves with a golden chain.
And again letting Atheists in and not Christians is remarkably eccentric.

 
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jastayme3       3/11/2007 5:05:41 PM

 Oh and yes I am aware of the animosity. One rabbi said that apostate jews would be boiled in excrement in hell. Actually I kind of admired his imagination!
As for going to search the depths by reading people like that, well I don't see why I should. It seems to me that other peoples hatreds are not the most edifying reading. I don't want to know what made a friend of mind wear a "kick me" sign on "nerd day" either. He probably didn't think it would offend me. And that may have been the trouble. I didn't bear a grudge but I did remember-and maybe that is why I don't need to be told. And yes I do know that it was far more then "kick me" and I don't need to be told that either.
Actually one thing I admire about the Jews is they came through it so well. Christians in Moslem lands often became either degraded or barbaric. Jews did neither.


 
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Shirrush       3/11/2007 5:26:48 PM

In a sort of way I understand. But it is putting community ahead of the search for truth. And if you are wrong and I am right then you are shackleing yourselves with a golden chain.
And again letting Atheists in and not Christians is remarkably eccentric.
Yes indeed you understand.
Commitment to the community is ahead of everything, but there is no special requirement for believing, it is only strongly encouraged by the religious leadership(s). There is, to the contrary, an obligation not to worship other groups' deities, but observing and understanding them is permitted except to the most benighted of the Ultra-Orthodox bigots for whom ignorance is a shield against heresy. Thus, more and more Jews including myself are accepting Jesus, not as the Messiah, but as a figure of our own history as indicated by your aforementioned "search for the truth". We therefore can appreciate and respect your faith a lot more than we could in the bad old days, but we still must stop short from adopting any of it least we become apostates.
 

 
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jastayme3       3/11/2007 5:27:23 PM
Hetzkel, all the points you're making are coherent and based on true knowledge, but you're missing mine:
Aren't Christianity, and the more than 10 centuries of sorrow and persecution it brought upon us, the most pernicious and perennial products of Jewish messianism itself?
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That is an "it does not follow". The fact that bullies use a doctrine to excuse bullying does not negate that doctrine anymore then the claim that dogs chew up homework negates dogs.

And by the way the New Testament explicitly forbids anti-semitism-Romans 11:11-22.
 
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jastayme3       3/11/2007 5:30:35 PM
I really like you guys. Why don't we go for drinks sometime in Tel-Aviv and indulge in Israel's national sport, arguing?
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Will you pay the ticket and make the travel arrangements?
 
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Shirrush       3/11/2007 5:53:13 PM

Actually one thing I admire about the Jews is they came through it so well. Christians in Moslem lands often became either degraded or barbaric. Jews did neither.
I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here. People are people, and as such are a pretty stinky species. Jews are no exception.
There are many testimonies of the depravity of both the Jews and the Christians of Moslem lands in 19th century travel literature.
If you're referring to the savagery of the Spaniards after they shook off the Islamic yoke, then you probably haven't heard of the 300-odd years of bloody and intolerant Israelite rule in Ethiopia in the Middle-Ages.

 
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Shirrush       3/11/2007 6:01:19 PM
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Will you pay the ticket and make the travel arrangements?

Why should I? I suppose you have a seat reserved on that C-17 so that you can be with us for Armageddon, right?
 
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jastayme3       3/11/2007 8:52:32 PM



Actually one thing I admire about the Jews is they came through it so well. Christians in Moslem lands often became either degraded or barbaric. Jews did neither.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here. People are people, and as such are a pretty stinky species. Jews are no exception.
There are many testimonies of the depravity of both the Jews and the Christians of Moslem lands in 19th century travel literature.
If you're referring to the savagery of the Spaniards after they shook off the Islamic yoke, then you probably haven't heard of the 300-odd years of bloody and intolerant Israelite rule in Ethiopia in the Middle-Ages.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here. People are people, and as such are a pretty stinky species. Jews are no exception.
There are many testimonies of the depravity of both the Jews and the Christians of Moslem lands in 19th century travel literature.
If you're referring to the savagery of the Spaniards after they shook off the Islamic yoke, then you probably haven't heard of the 300-odd years of bloody and intolerant Israelite rule in Ethiopia in the Middle-Ages.
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I suppose that's true enough more's the pity. In any case Jews in Christian countries seem to have weathered it better then Christians there. And I should think you could endure a compliment without offense


Oh by the way I don't know anything about anyone giving out free tickets on a C35 for armegeddon. If you mean some of us are unhealthyly obsessed by eschatology well that is true and most regretable. If you mean I think I have a rather better chance of getting to heaven because I think I guessed right, well of course I think that. Just as presumably I would think I had a better chance of winning a lot of money on the horse I bet on because that would be the horse I bet on. If you mean I think you won't get to heaven if you don't convert before you die, well there is too scanty evidence from scripture to say that for sure and I don't like to think that.  But if Arab bandits were swarming about the kibbutz's barrier, I doubt you would be all that grateful to me for failing to ring the alarm bell simply to let you enjoy your Bar-mitzvah. And there is a simple way to cover your losses which is just to ask Him to make sure you Get It Right whatever "It" is. And I don't really  care if  He  decides to wait 'til  half a second  before you  die  for that because the temporal  prestiege of the respective factions is an irrelevance to me.
As for whether by that C35 bit you are drumming up that old chessnut about bringing about the end times, well most end-times stories are centered around making people afraid of them not eager. And no one I  know wishes to use Jews as pawns for some nefarious eschatological purpose, Ok?

 
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