Avigdor Lieberman

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Shirrush Jewish pride anyone? 11/2/2006 1:56:13 PM

Avigdog Doberman is off the radar screen this week, except that he is only one of the factors testing our tolerance these days. He and his foreign, Pamyiat-inspired ideology that apes the worst antisemites in their own language, accent and demeanor, are a red blanket for many of us, and I think that I'm not the only Israeli Jew that sees Ivan Pogromtchick with his ax, behind every word I overhear in the loathsome-sounding Russian language. Same thing regarding the planned poofter's march in Jerusalem next week: if it indeed goes through, it is certain to turn ugly, since the mostly religious residents, hard hit by poverty and a perennial housing crisis accompanied with dire environmental problems, are stretched to the very limit of their tolerance, and view the gay pride thing as an insult to the very core of their beliefs.

Israel is facing an existential threat, and at the same time its democracy is especially threatened as the present, exceedingly corrupt leadership has lost the very respect of most of the citizenry. I'm afraid that the leaders that will emerge from what can be best described as a revolutionary situation, will be a lot worse than this Lieberman buffoon.

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Rasputin 11/3/2006 10:46:05 AM

Wow that is bad in the holy land. But those religious types seem to only complain and condemn, are they capable of standing up to fight??? Don't think that it will be violent.

Govt, oh my goodness, they don't even seem to care that there is a war going on, some care only about money, others about raping women. It really looks bleak.

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Rasputin 11/3/2006 10:32:06 PM

To be fair, I have not seen any objective evidence that Avigdor lieberman is a gay homosexual. Do you have any supporting evidence that he is leading the homo march into Jerusalem?

From what I ganered he has other agendas for his polotics.

Avigdor Lieberman was born in 1958 in the USSR and immigrated to Israel in 1978.

He holds a B.A. in Social Sciences from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Founder of the Yisrael Beiteinu party and the Zionist Forum, Lieberman served as Secretary of the National Workers' Union in Jerusalem; Chairman, Board of Directors of Information Industries; Member, Board of Directors of Economic Corporation of Jerusalem (1983-1988); Director of the Likud Movement (1993-1996); and Director-General Prime Minister's Office (1996-1997).

Elected to the Knesset in 1999, he served as a member of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

In March 2001, Avigdor Lieberman was appointed Minister of National Infrastructures.

He is married, with three children.

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jastayme3 11/29/2006 11:19:33 PM

They "view" it as an insult to their religious beliefs? A gay pride parade in Jerusalem? What else is it intended to be? That's like saying Judah Maccabee "viewed" sacrificeing a pig in the temple as an insult to Judaism.
Tolerance is a two way street you know.

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Rasputin 11/30/2006 12:43:39 AM

In that case Avigdor Lieberman is an insult to be compared to Rasputin. After all Rasputin did say, he prefered women.

Avigdor Liberman should be Prince Yusopof instead, a prince that comes out in drag, and got rebuffed by Rasputin, and is then angry with Rasputin servicing his wife.

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Shirrush Rasputin 11/30/2006 1:06:50 AM

Rasputin, where did I even hint about a link between Avigdog Doberman and the poofs?
I was just saying that the former is doubly repulsive for being a miscegenated son of Cossack rapists and a Pamyiat parrot, and for looking and sounding the part too, while the latter are merely irritating just about everybody here with their insistence on flouting their courtship rites and mating behaviors in public, which might be fun in a voyeurish way when it happens once, but is getting mighty tiresome after a while.

In the meantime, Avigdog has not made a single headline since he joined the government, and it looks as if Olmert has been successful neutering a most vocal part of his opposition.
Jastayme, your analogy about the hogs in the Temple is most accurate, and reflects the indignation of the religious people here. You seem to have a profound understanding of the religious mind, but you should be aware that this is exactly the sort of "red line" that deepens the lack of understanding between the religious and the secular, and has the potential to tear a pluralistic society asunder.

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Rasputin 12/7/2006 10:40:02 AM

Well, whoever the cap fits in Israel let them wear it.

But are not those jews from Russia also the sons of Israel, since they have paid in blood, there should be someone to fight for their rights if they want to belive in the Son of God as their Messiah, and their rights to eat ice cream and pork both at the same time, then so be it, lest Israel be no different from Iran.

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Ezekiel political-spectrum skewed in Israel 1/2/2007 11:54:35 AM

When ever there is a right wing politician in Israel the world always seems to cast them in a sardonic scary picture.... Going back to menachim Begin to Sharon, to now i guess Lieberman... First this evolves from the fact that in Israel there exist a left wing monopoly which is known that controls the establishment, it is known as the "steel triangle", the three tangents the left control are the media, justice system and academia. This triangle has existed since prel-state where Ben Gurion a bolshevik and his lot selectively chose which segments of Jewish populations would be smuggled into Israel, and by the 50's the labor party was a ruling party like Mexico until vincente fox finally brought down... this happened with the likud taht broke the labor hold in the mid 70's. But the monopoly still- has not been broken in the triangle. So Israel has a entrenched left which has evolved overtime into a radicallized left. The political of labor in the 50's cannot be compared to labor today. The point being because of this entrenched and radicalized l-eft, the political spectrum in Israel has become askew.... so if you are a nationalist then in Israel you're a uber nationalist. Lieberman isn't a crazy lunatic, but in Israel the media, academics and then backed up by the judiciary (which appoints themselves = no checks & balances) you have an equation that promotes this ideological- dogma that he's "fascist" "mad man" "extremist".... SO when the country media is saying it then it only makes sense that the world thinks it as well. You can't blame them can you? In my opinion Menachim Begin was the closest thing to a conservative in Israel and even he didn't symbolize a real rightwinger. Because the left is so far left in Israel, that a person in the right given the skewed spectrum is then considered extreme... The best indicator to know if one is left or right is whether they believe that land for peace is acceptable? if he says yes, he is generally left, if he/she says no they are right. Given all- this Kadima is not a center party they are left, labor is extreme left, Likud is the center party, NU/NRp is right and Herut would be extreme right. Though Israeli have become so indoctrinated within this political landscape that they would heavily disagree with me, I'm sure. But this is how I see it at least as an outsider looking in.

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Shirrush Hetzkel: the Mickey-Mouse democracy of our Avocado Republic. 1/2/2007 6:02:11 PM

As I suspected, it appears that our endearing n00b Ezekiel is a fellow Izzie.
As expected, he also talks from his arse when it comes to politics, but since it is my own behind too I can't really flame him least I singe my body hair and nobody likes that smell.
As exemplified many more often than the every four years when we're supposed to elect our parliament that itself determines our government, we Israelis are sorry boors in everything vaguely reminiscent of a political culture, and one election after another is actually lost because of that, by the ones that are supposed to win it, the majority of the hardworking, law-abiding, and oh-so tax paying citizens.
The reason why we consistently elect a bunch of crooks, half-demented nitwits and professional serial blunderers is lost to me, but some smartasses tend to attribute this to the fact that we're a nation of immigrants, most of whom coming from places with absolutely no democratic tradition (does "Russia" ring a bell to you, Ras-Putin?).
In any case, in order to understand what Hetzkel meant in his previous post, it is known that the right-left scale of the political spectrum in Israel is a totally screwed up affair, and has been corrupted by the fact we've been at war with our neighbors and a lot of our own citizens too, for the almost 60 years since we made the tragic but understandable mistake of becoming a nation-state.

Instead of the traditional, and universally accepted right -to-left axis that is built on a readiness-for-change basis, e.g. annihilationist to retrograde to conservative to modernist to reformist to revolutionary to anarchist to annihilationist, or on the somewhat obsolete economic ideology basis such as feodal to capitalistic to liberal to statist to socialist to collectivist to anarcho-feodal, we have something rather different. Our right to left axis is based on a purely wartime scale that goes from messianic/islamist-annihilationist to Jewish/Arab supremacist to nationalistic to peronista to patriotic-zionist to realist-zionist to post-zionist to "capitulazionist" to dhimmi-pacifist to collective suicide-annihilationist.

The Israeli left does not in fact exist anymore as one can easily discount the tiny minority of moonbats and gender-identity challenged pimply youths that you see at these leftist demos in Tel-Aviv, that usually go unnoticed owing to their inability to affect traffic or to attract the attention of more than one, token policeman.
I used to go there myself for LFP (Looking For Pu$$y) purposes since I still think that Leonard Cohen is a great writer, but I gave up long ago for lack of interest and because of the scarcity of even marginally attractive heterosexual females at these gatherings.

The right is fine, thank you. We have no such thing as a moderate conservative rightist here, since they have long since defected to what is in fact our embryonic bourgeois center, Qadima and Labor. What we have are a bunch of violent, evil apes that have no respect for anyone else's life, freedom, or property, and range from true-blood messianic fascists (fortunately, a not very popular, small minority- ugliness doesn't pay anymore.), that look and sound every bit like their counterparts of Hamas and Hizb-Allah (yup, Pamyat too when it's in Russian), except for a notably lesser propensity for mass-murder, to nationalistic crooks that further the interests of a few super-rich families with their ability to trick the poor and the ignorant with their hateful demagoguery. A good example of this is Ezekiel's post, that comes complete with the conspiracy theory about the leftist iron triangle. The crooks wag a finger of one of their hands in the direction of TAU professors, HaAretz journalists and the liberal Supreme Court judges, while all the fingers of their other hand are deep inside poor clueless Ezekiel's pocket!

At every election, the ordinary, down-to-earth interests and issues of the citizenry, such as the right to justice, a decent living in exchange of honest work, protection from hunger and need for the elderly and the weak, a reasonable measure of respect for human rights and basic liberties, the right not to die early from a poisonous environment, and all the rest of that boring stuff are swept away from the debate to be replaced by a purely "foreign policy", "ideology" and "us vs. them" discourse that is of course as detached from reality and useless as Olmert and Condi kissing up to the old terrorist Abbas . So you have the right pledging undying fidelity to the dismal, dry and Arab-ridden slopes of Judea-Samaria and to their own messianic, theocratic madness, and the left declaring their commitment to our own demise by accepting defeat without a fight, since there's nothing really worthy of fighting for.

Myself, I sometime wish we had a boringly moderate, peacefully debonnaire right such as the Christian-Democrats of Europe and some of the US Republicans, and a rabidly nationalistic true, social left like the Greek PASOK I could vote for, instead of the peronista klepto-demagogues of the Likud and the landed elite, in-your-face feodal faux-left of Labor.

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Bigfella2 Shirrush - I like your style 1/3/2007 3:09:27 AM

Shirrush,

You are a man after my own heart. I don't know enough about the fine detail of Israeli poiltics to judge the accuracy of your statements, but I like the panache with which you make them. Bravo!

I must admit to having been more than a bit disturbed to discover that someone like Sharon was being seen as 'centrist'. Can't help but wonder if his brain was so disturbed by the thought it attempted an immediate evacuation. Of course, this left Israel in the hands of Ehud Olmert. Sigh! At least I now know for certain that smart & nasty trumps dumb any day (does anyone seriously believe Sharon would have invaded Lebanon over a kidnapping?).

Keep punching sir, I look forward to future posts.

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Ezekiel 1/3/2007 3:17:07 AM

Shirrush actually i'm not Israeli, and I am not one prone to conspiracy theories, and in your response you gave plenty of ad hominem responses but didn't give much else as a response to any of the points I attempted to make. Though in true israeli fashion you deflect all the points by trashing the whole system, so to you what ever point or consideration someone makes on Israel, unless he doesn't take a stance that every stance sux well then you've labelled, categorized him/her and then feel comfortable to disregard what he is actually trying to express. The fact is it is a well known fact that the iron triangle exists.... there are only three newspapers in all of israel- and they don't espouse right wing views can you agree with that? is it not true that the supreme court is known to be leftist and that they basically appoint themselves which logically l-eads to an ideologically undiverse group (read cheshins interview inhaaretz the week after he retired...unbelievable) wasn't beinish taught in hebrew U by Barak....I mean come on. The incitement laws tend to be profiled against the settler community where many of them are put under house arrest or detained without a trial as was seen during the lead up to disengagement. and the universities well I don't know what to say I mean the only real uni in Israel that is not considered a l-eft wing bastion is Bar illan, and we both know it ain't the best university. We're getting off the point the fact is there is history in Israel of a l-eft wing cadre from the refusal to l-et jabotinsky to be buried in the country for al-ong time, to the IDF requiring labor membership to join its upper ranks (this was abolished in early 70's) I mean come on if you won't admit this then what's the point. You revealed yourself when you said "mistake" of becoming a nation-state. It makes me understand that you have completely given up on the jewish state... I say that a jewish state is right now very young, and the jews are 1900 yrs out of practice at running one, having to play the part of the court jew for so long, reminds me of the abba eban quote, " u can take the jew out of the exile, but it doesn't mean you can take the exile out of the jew." Though i look at world history and i see how much of a positive impact the jews have had on the worl-d from giving a morality that western civ is based on, to the concept of one god which half the world believes in.. Israel didn't get to slowly through continuous inhabitance on the land regrow a national culture, it was done in trauma from the face of genocide to the hands of Arab rejection and so it ain't easy...but it never is for the jews, that's just the way it is. They didn't have a chance to have an alexander hamilton against a thomas jefferson The fact is in Israel today there is a left wing biased that has led it to a politically skewed spectrum that if your rightist and have a sense of nationalism (which is by the way necessary in any national enterprise to a certain degree) you are immediately and/or knee jerk labeled an extremist or ultra nationalist this has left a political debate devoid of any real healthy debate and has engendered bad policy.... in the big picture it forces the right in Israel to have to be better/smarter in order to finally succeed in entering the mainstream and thus creating a very much needed balance..... so for me this all translates too when an isreali pol-itician is considered an extremist or a war mongerer what have you, i immediately take a step back and try to find out on my own instead of listening to the mob or the errent dissillusioned Israeli....Its the only way when it comes to Israel to trully get an accurate perspective.

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jastayme3 1/3/2007 3:19:02 AM

Shirush, I doubt it's a comfort but the only country's that don't regularly elect crooks, dimwits and serial blunderers are those that don't have elections.

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Shirrush 1/6/2007 4:04:54 PM

This topic is getting better by the post, and inscribes itself neatly in the local zeitgeist. Try this rather amusing piece from our most irritatingly left-wing press organ, and make sure you read some of the talkbacks, in which the usual antisemites are of course having a field day.

Bigfella, thanks for the compliments.
I confess that I was part of the crowd that made Sharon the Big Bad Right Wing Wolf he wasn't, and I do regret it.
Sharon was every bit a scion of the Labor Zionism, the current that made it possible for us to become a nation-state and to survive as such against overwhelming odds. Enamored with power as only a true Human can be, Sharon made, early on in his dazzling political career, the cynical choice of adopting the rightist-nationalist-territorialist stance and language I loathe so much, but I now doubt he ever believed any of it.
His settlement policy as Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Housing under M. Begin was by no means in contradiction with his left-leaning, socialistic caste's pioneering and colonizing ideology, that had done, a long time before the six-days war, their share of the brutal expropriations without which we would never have stood a chance as a defensible territory, let alone a viable economy.

Sharon as Prime Minister in wartime was a model of restraint, and the fact that there are still Palestinians alive to massacre each other today is sufficient proof that Sharon in fact was a bleeding-heart moderate. Moreover, the not-uncertain political victory he scored against the territorialist-messianic rightists whom he expelled out of Gaza, also speaks volumes about Sharon's true leanings.
Above all, the fact that he never even did anything serious or intentional against the country's democratic institutions in spite of the fact that almost everybody, including yours truly, expected him to become a dictator shortly after winning the PM's seat, vindicates your definition of him as a centrist.
His legacy, however, is rather horrendous. He did defeat Arafat's 2^nd Intifada and we're not dying in city buses anymore, but he left us with pervasive corruption, cronyism, and a general disregard for citizen's rights and the civil society that will take us decades to repair, if we ever get around to it before the Moslems wipe us out.
There have been tons of articles on how Sharon would have handled the Hizb-Allah, but the bottom line is that it was him that gutted the IDF's GC from any officer capable of independent thought or sufficiently brilliant to be perceived as a threat to the brown-noses, and the results of the war are the results of Sharon's cronyism too.

In spite of all his shortcomings and the damage he did to our country's image and cohesion, Sharon was our last leader. For the first time in its 4,000 years of history, Israel is now bereft of a King, and there's not even a Prophet who can anoint one.
This is an absolutely new, unprecedented situation, with nothing similar, even in the Bible. So far, the people of Israel has been reacting to this with a surprising apathy, a state of political catatonia in which nothing exceeds the level of the above-quoted article or the low-key groaning and ranting I'm doing here.

We must wake up before we're all dead, somehow. Let's panic!

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Shirrush Ezekiel 1/6/2007 4:38:08 PM

Ezekiel, your knowledge of Israel is commendable if indeed you're not one of us, and I did mistake you for one the Likudnikim that appear sporadically on these boards.

Your opinions are respectable even though I disagree with most, but please kindly make sure that they are brought up in a respectable way. Automatic writing could be tolerated for short posts, but if you have much to say, please make sure to use coherent sentences arranged in separate paragraphs.

I am for one interested in what you want to say, so please go easy on my poor eyesight and on my shrinking attention span, willya?
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I am as irritated as you are by the leftists of HaAretz, and above all, by the moonbats of the state-run Arutz 1 shilling for Cindy Sheehan every chance they get. (but hey, nobody watches Arutz 1 anymore except for extreme insomniacs in search of a cure)
That does not mean that the whole of Israel in in the thralls of these shallow thinkers, but only that the other side can't write much. As for your "three newspapers" assertion, it's simply not true. We have a free press here, and the most rabid rightists are free to distill their hatred, in Hebrew, in the national religious and haredi papers such as Hatzofeh, HaModi'a, Yated Ne'eman I do not read.
Yedyioth is left -leaning, but its columns are open to right-wing writers, same goes for Ma'ariv and even HaAretz. There is absolutely no repression of the rightist opinion here, provided it does not include open racism as it so often does. Some Israeli rightists can even write in English, and good examples of this are the Jerusalem Post, that actually became a lot better by becoming more informative and less rightist-ideological, and Arutz 7, the settlers' bugle. If the leftist discourse was as pervasive as you think it is, and the other side was as supressed as you assert, Yossi Beilin would be PM, not Olmert.

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Ezekiel 1/7/2007 3:41:07 AM

I know alot about Israel b/c it is trully intriguing, I'm sorry if my writing is not fit for strategypage conversation....I will try and do better. Well we are veering off topic, remember this is about avigdor and his supposed uber nationalist quasi messianic ilk as you or many others would put it. But let me respond to just a few things you assirted in your above paragraph....

You mentioned that it is not true that there are only three papers in Israel you mentioned haredi papers (i call them pamphlets) and arutz sheva and the j post. When talking about large points, such as I was, when I tried to say that "Israel's political spectrum is askewed" I am making generalization's which is like paradigms not everything fits with in it, but it gives you more then it takes away meaning, when i say there are only three newspapers in Israel it means, three that are nationwide accepted by the mainstream of Israeli's. The J post is strictly french/english and it has become centrist after brett stephens left for the wall street journal around 2 years ago. The arutz 7 is a perfect example of the leftism in Israel. If you remember they had a radio station on a barge in int. waters and the Israeli justice community targeted it as pirating the airwaves and shut it down, now it uses the internet under www.israelnationalnews.com. There is supposed free press in Israel, and yes you will see a rightist editorial, but its surrounded by leftist col-umns/editorials. In interviews its very subtle, but its their in how they approach a rightist immediately putting him on the defensive. The media very rarely put a real right winger thinker on panels instead they put their mascots that are easy to debunk andmade to look foolish... These are just subtleties. The fact is there are three main hebrew speaking papers and they are leftist mouthpieces, if you choose disagree with me that's your choice.

You didn't address the justice system and/or the academia in Israel-, but no matter I'm sure you find them to be even keeled in conservatives vs. progressives or even better they are all crazy and therefore an opinion isn't worth it. The fact of the matter is that for me, when one tells me he is an Israeli, I know you won't like it in the slightest, but i generally believe Israelis have been force fed all this leftist pseudo progressive garbage from womb on up. I don't want to say you are brainwashed, but you have been exposed to l-ong held dogma's and i think its very hard once, exposed to liberate yourself from it and completely think outside the box. The fact that you believe that sharon was a centrist, though he ethnically deported and ethnically cleansed land won in a defensive war of 9000 jews from gaza is quite absurd. Mind you doing it in the midst of an ongoing struggle with a genocidal jihadist population, but this is besides the point. Israel has not been introduced to a real rightwing party a real jewish conservative party. I'm not a kachnick and I don't agree with him, but Kahane was the closest Israel had and you saw what happened to him...the establishment in Israel blackballed him, refused to debate him, refused to be able to protest on public land, made an unlawful party though he was to be in 88 the third largest party.... The fact when you read this guys name you will probably be salivating thinking that now i can paint this guy as a racist, a fascist....but that's the point it's knee jerk, and I can pretty much gaurantee that you probably never read one of his books. the fact is like i said i'm not a kachnik, but i do think he was the clsosest Israel had as a conservative and we say what the establishment did to him. Let me tell you one thing though about Kahane, he was not a rascist by any definition of rascism and he wanted to transfer arabs, but didn't sharon transfer jews, why is it ok to transfer jews but not arabs....only in Israel- can this schitzofrenia be possible.

The reason there is no leaders anymore in Israel b/c there is no real debate in the country b/c the lack of a cohesive cogent political jewish conservatism that generates creative idea's to tackle a nations problems, but also the academia and professors that are bastion of post zionism (which in my opinion is a form of self loathing) and pseudo progressivism, that have engendered a generation of Israeli's full of apology, fatalism, and exilic neurosis. As john and paul said on their abbey road cd you get what you give. And this is what Israel-'s got. Now as I said to you before all this means that given enough time there will be a generation of Israelis that will be able through intellect and sophistication break this leftist stranglhold... it all takes time and I understand Israel is only 60 yrs old. But we are talking about avigdor, I don't think he is a crazy right winger, an ultra nationalist. He is a right winger that I will say and he has some savvy as a politician, but like sharon his ideologies stem from expediency and not true belief, and as sharon taught us, pragmatism without a direction (ideology) can be very dangerous. Israel is in for a very tough decade in my opinion but i think in this period you will see the beginnings of a conservatism, it will be interesting to watch how they navigate the knee jerk dogma of israel-'s leftist establishment, it will be real l-essons in political science that you can take home with you.

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