How did Israel secure its status as a nation state after WWII?

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HoundOfHello 10/25/2006 8:35:50 PM

Two things: the fact that both the US and the USSR agreed that Israel was cool, and the fact that the Israelis beat the cr@p out of the bad neighbors who wanted to deny them that status. The former was important because it ensured that Israel would not be in some sort of diplomatic limbo in the UN (then still regarded as actually being useful), and the latter was important because status would have been irrelevant if they had lost.

-HoH

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Yimmy 10/25/2006 8:55:33 PM

"status would have been irrelevant if they
had lost. "

I like that... mind if I use it?

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Shirrush 10/26/2006 6:59:34 AM

Has it?
Is there any other nation-state on Earth, which status and legitimacy are being as constantly dicussed and challenged as Israel?
Kiribati? nah!

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Heorot Yimmy 10/26/2006 8:37:30 AM

Opinions anyone?

This is a good place to start from the British viewpoint.

link href="http://britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/index.htm" link

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Yimmy 10/26/2006 4:20:54 PM

Has it?
Is there any other nation-state on Earth, which status and legitimacy are being as constantly dicussed and challenged as Israel?
Kiribati? nah!

I don't think anyone can argue that Israel is a state, although the concept of a "nation-state" could be argued. People may not like it, but they can't really pretend it doesnt exist!

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jastayme3 10/26/2006 9:15:19 PM

The basic mottos are "in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king."

And "knowlege is power".

And "wounded animals are dangerous"

The Jews had foreign knowlege. They knew how to build a modern state from reading about the states around. And they spent about fifty years practiceing during the days of the Mandate. By world war ii the Yishuv was capable of ruling on it's own. When the British left Jewish regions nothing changed but a few procedural thises and thats.
By contrast the Palestinian Arabs hadn't thought to build a decent political lobby let alone a counterpart to the Yishuv. When the British left everything collapesed in the Palestinian Arab zones. The dynastic states were better organized but still basically giant sheikdoms.
The Jews had skilled people from far away and money from far away. Arab states had more money but did not know what to do with it. The Palestinians did not have that.
The Jew's had known for a long time that they would have to fight for survival and were prepared. The Arabs expected a pogram not a war.
The Jews had fewer resources of both personal and arms but they made it go farther-they were able to get a tremendous Military Participation Ratio which made up for the low population.
The Yishuv could not compare with a Great Power but it was very formidable for the region. And in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
Finally the Jews were desperate. And desperation has a power of it's own. Someone said the Arabs declared a holy war but the Jews fought one. Survival is a very strong motivation. As is "We won't have any more @#! goyim think they can pick on us and not get it back!" In the meantime the Arabs were fighting among themselves and the strength of their motives was mixed. Some Arabs had come simply because they had nothing better to do. Desperation isn't enough ffor maneuver war but it is most useful in attrition war.
More and more Jews were immigrating, increasing the new states military potential. At the same time the Arabs were losing manpower at an intolerable rate in attritional fighting in Jerusalem and around the Kibbutzim. At the final phase the Jews could field a force that was superior in all areas to the Arabs and the Arabs were incapable of going farther.
At that point the Jews could turn to the attack-with interior lines. The Arabs were incapable of resisting. And the Jews could conquer more then was alloted to them by partition and justify it by Vae Victas. And at that momment no one in the entire world was in the mood to object. Even the British mainly wanted out by that time. The Jews simply stopped before the world's mood changed, when they had conquered enough to make a geographically defensible state

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jastayme3 10/26/2006 9:21:45 PM

Two things: the fact that both the US and the USSR agreed that Israel
was cool, and the fact that the Israelis beat the cr@p out of the bad
neighbors who wanted to deny them that status. The former was important
because it ensured that Israel would not be in some sort of diplomatic
limbo in the UN (then still regarded as actually being useful), and the
latter was important because status would have been irrelevant if they
had lost.

-HoH

To be honest the second was the most important. Says something about the world doesn't it? If the Arabs had won the world would have simply gone "tsk, tsk" over the "poor Jews" without helping a bit. And to be fair the world was stuffed with unfortunate people more then usual then, and few care about those they have no connection too. As the Jews won it was necessary to have some diplomatic influence with them. Some things never change.

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jastayme3 10/26/2006 9:33:38 PM

Has it?
Is there any other nation-state on Earth, which status and legitimacy are being as constantly dicussed and challenged as Israel?
Kiribati? nah!

Probably not. But I note that the challenges to Israel's legitimacy do not seem to inspire the Kneset to disolve the State of Israel.

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Yimmy 11/17/2006 6:17:50 AM

Nobody else got any comments on how Israel came into being?

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Herald1234 Just this........... 11/17/2006 6:52:59 AM

Many, of the actual fighters among the Israelis, had excellent training in the Second World War. Whether as partisans, or volunteers, or former soldiers in Allied armies who emigrated to the British Mandate prior to 1947, that gave the Israelis a ready-made officer and NCO corps for their forces. You cannot overestimate how much that latent professionalism combined with their iron determination and desperation became a force multiplier.

Something else. People might consider this culturally chauvinistic, but European civilization produces, or at least it produced then, organized efficient bureaucratic and corporate-minded organizational people who thought, acted, and worked as cohesive units.

Arab culture then, and I'm not sure it isn't true now, wasn't capable of that.

Israelis knew enough to pull basic equipment maintenance and drill themselves until their arms fell off..

That accounts for maybe half of why they were so effective.

The rest of it may have just been sheer grit.

Herald

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Godofgamblers 11/20/2006 12:39:09 AM

There are various answers to your question, yimme, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

(1) Arabs see the creation as a form of colonialism, since as is the case with many cases of imperialism, there was immigration of foreign natonals.

However, the 'foreign nationals' in this case were not completely alien farmers, as in the case of white immigration to various African countries (Rhodesia, South Africa, etc) (2) but people who were culturally and ethnically part of the Levant.

There was also a large population already present in the area that felt they needed protection after WWII, lest they go the way of oppressed minorities in other countries. The state of Israel as a political entity and not just a vague cultural identity became a necessity.

(2) The modern state of Israel was born in a baptism of fire. Every nation has its founding myth and Israel has its own, forged in combat. Once the state was a fait accompli, the other nations had to recognize it.

These are two reasons that spring to mind (although there are others) as to why Israel has a right to exist and why it came into being. A realpolitik reason and a cultural reason.

Does this answer the question?

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YelliChink 11/20/2006 12:55:03 AM

Has it?
Is there any other nation-state on Earth, which status and legitimacy are being as constantly dicussed and challenged as Israel?
Kiribati? nah!

Taiwan?

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HoundOfHello 11/22/2006 12:55:51 PM

Wow. Haven't been to this board in a while.

"I like that... mind if I use it?"-Yimmy
---Sure, go ahead.

" To be honest the second was the most important. Says something about the world doesn't it? If the Arabs had won the world would have simply gone "tsk, tsk" over the "poor Jews" without helping a bit. And to be fair the world was stuffed with unfortunate people more then usual then, and few care about those they have no connection too. As the Jews won it was necessary to have some diplomatic influence with them. Some things never change. "- Jastayme
----Agreed.

Same to Herald. I think you got it perfectly.

"but people who were culturally and ethnically part of the Levant. "-GoG
----Disagree. I don't see how a Russian, German, French, or Polish Jew is culturally and ethnically part of the Levant. Their ancestors were, but the Jews who emigrated to Israel had been shaped by a millenia of European cultural influence not Levantine.

"There was also a large population already present in the area that felt they needed protection after WWII, lest they go the way of oppressed minorities in other countries. "- GoG
---How and when did the opression start though? AFAIK, Jews weren't bothered too often before the late 19th and early 20th century during the Arab nationalist movements. IMO, the Balfour declaration was the spark that really got the Arabs and Jews at each other's throats.

"

Has it?
Is there any other nation-state on Earth, which status and legitimacy are being as constantly dicussed and challenged as Israel?
Kiribati? nah!

Taiwan?"- Yellichink
---Not even close to the same degree that Israel has I think. PRC and Taiwan have been in a Cold War state since 1949. In that time Israel has had to fight 3 full scale wars against neighbors who have sought its destruction.

-HoH

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Godofgamblers 11/23/2006 7:03:55 PM

Hey HoH, how's it going, you may be right, but the key is that people PERCEIVED them to be Jewish. This is why they were discriminated against. The Russians and Poles and Germans et al did not take the view that they had become European, no matter how many years they were in Europe. As a result, they did have a need to take shelter in a homeland. If they had no Jewishness about them, as you seem to be saying, why would they go in fact to Israel? Why would they have heeded the call to go to the emerging state of Israel is they had been fully assimilated? Obviously, culturally and ethnically, they still felt themselves to be Jews.

You may be right that the Arabs were not immediately threatening them, but because of contemporary massacres and genocides, the position of minorities was more and more an issue. Hence the sense of urgency.

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Barca 11/27/2006 10:02:15 AM

Nobody else got any comments on how Israel came into being?

I will argue that the possibility of a state of Israel started because secular Jews in the 19th century bought land and encouraged other Jews to do so. After the breakup of the Turkish 'Empire' and the desire of England and France to divest themselves, the UN was the vehicle for the victorious powers to create the treaties.

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