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Subject: Required Reading on What is AntiSemitism
swhitebull    8/18/2006 2:23:33 PM
Excellent analysis when people say that Arabs are semites, too, so they cant be "anti-semitic"

Jonah Goldberg, National Review, 2003:

ANTI-SEMITISM [Jonah Goldberg]

Stanley's post reminded me of a point I've been meaning to bring up for a while. Many Arab anti-Semites like to say "I can't be anti-Semitic, I am a Semite!" This is, of course, an ignorant dodge. The word "anti-Semitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr in Germany in 1879 because the common word for Jew-hatred, Judenhass, had gone out of style. The only major population of "semites" in Germany at the time were, of course, Jews and Marr hated them. Anyway, because the word is a dodge, many Jew-haters in the US get to play silly games with it too.

But the opposition to this war by the anti-Semites simply underscores how they really are Jew-haters. After all, a real anti-Semite should love this war because Arabs are, in fact, Semites too. In this sense the US is simply hunting where the ducks are. Yet even at this level these guys are hypocrites, because its not Semites they dislike, it's just the Hebrew ones. Just a thought.

swhitebull
 
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Thomas    RE:Required Reading on What is AntiSemitism   8/20/2006 5:33:32 PM
I think the basis of anti-semitism is selfpity. The Russian pogroms - Russia has always been a administrative disaster - no wonder everything has gone down the toilet for them. Hitler's Germany couldn't get to terms with having lost WW1: They had beaten the crap out of Europe - and were surprised that nobody liked them. The Arabs: Tiny Israel is the reason for all their troubles. The Arabs accuse the west of not understanding and not caring about them - what is so interesting about the arab nations?
 
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jastayme3    RE:Required Reading on What is AntiSemitism   8/22/2006 6:15:18 PM
I think the basis of anti-semitism is selfpity. The Russian pogroms - Russia has always been a administrative disaster - no wonder everything has gone down the toilet for them. Hitler's Germany couldn't get to terms with having lost WW1: They had beaten the crap out of Europe - and were surprised that nobody liked them. The Arabs: Tiny Israel is the reason for all their troubles. The Arabs accuse the west of not understanding and not caring about them - what is so interesting about the arab nations? ____________________________________ It does seem to have something to do with envy. British anti-semiteism was more sneering then murdurous-in was essentially another type of snobbery. The Nazis seem to have been trying to convince themselves they were superior. As for the Arabs, if they had put as much fanaticism into making their own deserts bloom they might have had something to be proud of.
 
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WinsettZ    RE:Required Reading on What is AntiSemitism   8/23/2006 1:20:32 AM
An offtopic response to the third paragraph: Oil.
 
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jastayme3       10/20/2006 8:39:57 PM

An offtopic response to the third paragraph:

Oil.


A response to the response: found by infidels.
 
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jastayme3       10/17/2007 1:23:59 AM

One thing that is remarkable is that many of the stereotypes of Jews have a positive as well as negative interpretation and therefore a philo and an anti can have a similar picture and perceive it almost opposite, because of their emotional makeup. It is suprising no one has mentioned it.

for instance Jews are:

Anti-semite: "An evil conspiracy to rule the world!"/ Philo-semite:"What have you been smoking?!"

OK just kidding. But here are some real examples of what I am talking about.

Anti: "Timid"   /  Philo: "Peaceful"

Anti: "Militaristic Imperialists" /Philo: "Make the desert bloom and God bless the IDF"

Obviously these are contradictory if Jews are percieved as monalithic. Which proves again that while stereotypes can be useful in identifying shared characteristics(all groups share characteristics or they wouldn't be groups) when they become monolithic they are irrational as well as cruel.

Jews are:

Anti: "Money-grubing"/Philo: "enterpriseing"

Anti: "Cunning"/ Philo: "Intelligent"

Anti: "Only care for their own"/ Philo: "Care a lot for their own"

Anti: "Fanatical"/ Philo: "Devoted"

Anti: "Tribalistic"/Philo: "What's wrong with that?"

Anti: "Rootless"/Philo: " 'Well-Travelled', 'Citizens of the World', etc"

Anti: "Dual Loyalty"/Philo: "Maintain Ties"

And on, and on







 
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jastayme3       10/17/2007 1:32:06 AM


One thing that is remarkable is that many of the stereotypes of Jews have a positive as well as negative interpretation and therefore a philo and an anti can have a similar picture and perceive it almost opposite, because of their emotional makeup. It is suprising no one has mentioned it.

for instance Jews "are":

Anti-semite: "An evil conspiracy to rule the world!"/ Philo-semite:"What have you been smoking?!"

OK just kidding. But here are some real examples of what I am talking about.

Anti: "Timid"   /  Philo: "Peaceful"

Anti: "Militaristic Imperialists" /Philo: "Make the desert bloom and God bless the IDF"

Obviously these are contradictory if Jews are percieved as monalithic. Which proves again that while stereotypes can be useful in identifying shared characteristics(all groups share characteristics or they wouldn't be groups) when they become monolithic they are irrational as well as cruel.

Jews "are":

Anti: "Money-grubing"/Philo: "enterpriseing"

Anti: "Cunning"/ Philo: "Intelligent"

Anti: "Only care for their own"/ Philo: "Care a lot for their own"

Anti: "Fanatical"/ Philo: "Devoted"

Anti: "Tribalistic"/Philo: "What's wrong with that?"

Anti: "Rootless"/Philo: " 'Well-Travelled', 'Citizens of the World', etc"

Anti: "Dual Loyalty"/Philo: "Maintain Ties"

And on, and on







to clarify I have added quotation marks around the word "are" which can only be partly true at most.

 
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SGTObvious       10/19/2007 1:35:15 PM
 
 
Anti semitism is clearly illogical.  If we were to believe claims that "the Jews control the world", well, then they must suck at it if you look at how things have gone for them in the world.
 
And if it were true that the Israel lobby controls the US, then the Sixth Fleet would be anchored off Gaza, blasting away whenever a rocket flies out of Gaza.  That's what we would do to a neighbor that bombards us, certainly we would do nothing less if Israel controlled us.
 
Heck, Cuba?  1962?  We were prepared to launch the nukes because an unfriendly neighbor merely HAD rockets!
 
We don't take well to things like that.  The Israelis show far more restraint than we ever would.
 
SGTObvious
 
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jastayme3       10/19/2007 4:27:26 PM

 

 

Anti semitism is clearly illogical.  If we were to believe claims that "the Jews control the world", well, then they must suck at it if you look at how things have gone for them in the world.

 

And if it were true that the Israel lobby controls the US, then the Sixth Fleet would be anchored off Gaza, blasting away whenever a rocket flies out of Gaza.  That's what we would do to a neighbor that bombards us, certainly we would do nothing less if Israel controlled us.

 

Heck, Cuba?  1962?  We were prepared to launch the nukes because an unfriendly neighbor merely HAD rockets!

 

We don't take well to things like that.  The Israelis show far more restraint than we ever would.

 

SGTObvious

Of course it is and I never could understand it. But then I never could understand hating someone who hasn't done anything to you and your's and was unlikly to. But I did find it interesting how many of the things given as "reasons" had a possitive as well as a negative connotation depending on which angle they are viewed from.

 
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Ezekiel       10/21/2007 1:23:13 PM
read deuteronomy it spells it out.

Also sartre's "anti semite & jew"

 
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jastayme3       10/21/2007 8:14:12 PM

read deuteronomy it spells it out.

Also sartre's "anti semite & jew"


Where in Deut? Oh and as a side note I thought I heard somewhere that your version doesn't use chapter-and-verse(admitedly arbitrary, but convenient) like ours and uses a different system-if so can it be "translated" so I can find it?
 
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Ezekiel       10/22/2007 1:33:33 AM



read deuteronomy it spells it out.

Also sartre's "anti semite & jew"



Where in Deut? Oh and as a side note I thought I heard somewhere that your version doesn't use chapter-and-verse(admitedly arbitrary, but convenient) like ours and uses a different system-if so can it be "translated" so I can find it?

Deuteronomy chapter 29, the Hebrew label for this portion is called 'Nitzavim'
 
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jastayme3       10/24/2007 11:59:21 AM







read deuteronomy it spells it out.

Also sartre's "anti semite & jew"




Where in Deut? Oh and as a side note I thought I heard somewhere that your version doesn't use chapter-and-verse(admitedly arbitrary, but convenient) like ours and uses a different system-if so can it be "translated" so I can find it?


Deuteronomy chapter 29, the Hebrew label for this portion is called 'Nitzavim'
Because they "abandoned the Covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers"? Well haven't we all, though there are covenants and The Covenant and all. But again, haven't we all?
But still that's kind of "Christ-killer" sort of thing, isn't it? And isn't that rather God's business? I never understood why people consider it their job to make it more excruciating. But I suppose bullies always find an excuse wherever they can get it. And I never understood that either.
Fr. John Neuhaus once wrote that he was raised to believe in "Christ-killer" doctrinally but no one in his town dreamed of thinking that gave them a right to "avenge" Christ on the Jews in his town. Which shows there are different people and different choices, and the excuse doesn't always make the action.
So again, I never understood it.
 
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Ezekiel       10/24/2007 1:31:32 PM














read deuteronomy it spells it out.

Also sartre's "anti semite & jew"





Where in Deut? Oh and as a side note I thought I heard somewhere that your version doesn't use chapter-and-verse(admitedly arbitrary, but convenient) like ours and uses a different system-if so can it be "translated" so I can find it?



Deuteronomy chapter 29, the Hebrew label for this portion is called 'Nitzavim'

Because they "abandoned the Covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers"? Well haven't we all, though there are covenants and The Covenant and all. But again, haven't we all?
But still that's kind of "Christ-killer" sort of thing, isn't it? And isn't that rather God's business? I never understood why people consider it their job to make it more excruciating. But I suppose bullies always find an excuse wherever they can get it. And I never understood that either.
Fr. John Neuhaus once wrote that he was raised to believe in "Christ-killer" doctrinally but no one in his town dreamed of thinking that gave them a right to "avenge" Christ on the Jews in his town. Which shows there are different people and different choices, and the excuse doesn't always make the action.
So again, I never understood it.
Bear in mind the significance that this was foretold three millenia past, however your theological temprements run, facts are facts. He foretold great calamity, upheaval and suffering if the Jews do not abide by their side of the bargain. It was a choice that moses offered and Judaism is pre-eminently concerned with Justice (the law) the finding of a harmony. The Jews though are still bound to the covenant and G-d does not renig on an oath made within his essence. By the way if you read further in the dialogue Moses also speaks of Gods love for his nation that inevitably would lead to a miraculous return from exile....The fact that Israel exists takes this liturgy to even greater relevancy. There is some accurate stuff found  concerning anti semitism, however you decide to churn this information it cannot be ignored within the dialogue of the origins of Anti semitism.

As it seems to me the Jew has suffered much, but has learned much. Maybe the father must demand his son to go out in the world and find that necessary wisdom to transform and become a man. For whatever reason you may subscribe too the fact is that anti semitism  has not destroyed the Jews into the oblivion of history, but rather fortified them, they are still here and have now miraculously re-established statehood.

So what you see as melovolence may be the tough love which is the necessary consequence if there is to be  free choice, consequences shaped to ensure Jewish survival. More clearly, goals to a degree justify means, which is wholly dependent on the goal in which is under debate. As the saying goes "the purist gold must go through the fiery  furnace."

I don't know if I agree with this line of thinking I was just giving you some food for thought, but in the very least I assirt that  these considerations are legitimate concerning the text and the reality which history attests to.



 
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jastayme3       10/24/2007 3:21:48 PM

























read deuteronomy it spells it out.

Also sartre's "anti semite & jew"






Where in Deut? Oh and as a side note I thought I heard somewhere that your version doesn't use chapter-and-verse(admitedly arbitrary, but convenient) like ours and uses a different system-if so can it be "translated" so I can find it?




Deuteronomy chapter 29, the Hebrew label for this portion is called 'Nitzavim'


Because they "abandoned the Covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers"? Well haven't we all, though there are covenants and The Covenant and all. But again, haven't we all?
But still that's kind of "Christ-killer" sort of thing, isn't it? And isn't that rather God's business? I never understood why people consider it their job to make it more excruciating. But I suppose bullies always find an excuse wherever they can get it. And I never understood that either.
Fr. John Neuhaus once wrote that he was raised to believe in "Christ-killer" doctrinally but no one in his town dreamed of thinking that gave them a right to "avenge" Christ on the Jews in his town. Which shows there are different people and different choices, and the excuse doesn't always make the action.
So again, I never understood it.

Bear in mind the significance that this was foretold three millenia past, however your theological temprements run, facts are facts. He foretold great calamity, upheaval and suffering if the Jews do not abide by their side of the bargain. It was a choice that moses offered and Judaism is pre-eminently concerned with Justice (the law) the finding of a harmony. The Jews though are still bound to the covenant and G-d does not renig on an oath made within his essence. By the way if you read further in the dialogue Moses also speaks of Gods love for his nation that inevitably would lead to a miraculous return from exile....The fact that Israel exists takes this liturgy to even greater relevancy. There is some accurate stuff found  concerning anti semitism, however you decide to churn this information it cannot be ignored within the dialogue of the origins of Anti semitism.

As it seems to me the Jew has suffered much, but has learned much. Maybe the father must demand his son to go out in the world and find that necessary wisdom to transform and become a man. For whatever reason you may subscribe too the fact is that anti semitism  has not destroyed the Jews into the oblivion of history, but rather fortified them, they are still here and have now miraculously re-established statehood.

So what you see as melovolence may be the tough love which is the necessary consequence if there is to be  free choice, consequences shaped to ensure Jewish survival. More clearly, goals to a degree justify means, which is wholly dependent on the goal in which is under debate. As the saying goes "the purist gold must go through the fiery  furnace."

I don't know if I agree with this line of thinking I was just giving you some food for thought, but in the very least I assirt that  these considerations are legitimate concerning the text and the reality which history attests to.



That's as may be. God is ultimately inscrutable in any case. I was saying I didn't understand why a person would want to be anti-semitic.

 
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FJV    The Italians   10/24/2007 3:34:51 PM
It would be the Romans that are the Christ killers, which would be the Italians nowadays. Kindof strange how that is considered the fault of the Jews. All the Jews did was voice their preference of Barabas over Jesus if I'm to believe the Bible. That's what you get when you turn religion into a popularity vote, which is basically also the Roman's fault.

Which means we should be all Italian haters???















 
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