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Subject: The Best Guerrilla Force in the World
harry2006    8/14/2006 10:38:59 AM
Analysts Attribute Hezbollah's Resilience to Zeal, Secrecy and Iranian Funding. Hezbollah's irregular fighters stood off the modern Israeli army for a month in the hills of southern Lebanon thanks to extraordinary zeal and secrecy, rigorous training, tight controls over the population, and a steady flow of Iranian money to acquire effective weaponry, according to informed assessments in Lebanon and Israel. Because Hezbollah was entrenched in friendly Shiite-inhabited villages and underground bunkers constructed in secret over several years, a withering Israeli air campaign and a tank-led ground assault were unable to establish full control over a border strip and sweep it clear of Hezbollah guerrillas -- one of Israel's main declared war aims. Largely as a result, the U.N. Security Council resolution approved unanimously Friday night fell short of the original objectives laid out by Israel and the Bush administration when the conflict began July 12. Moreover, Hezbollah's military leadership carefully studied military history, including the Vietnam War, the Lebanese expert said, and set up a training program with help from Iranian intelligence and military officers with years of experience in the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s. The training was matched to weapons that proved effective against Israeli tanks, he added, including the Merkava main battle tank with advanced armor plating. Wire-guided and laser-guided antitank missiles were the most effective and deadly Hezbollah weapons, according to Israeli military officers and soldiers. A review of Israel Defense Forces records showed that the majority of Israeli combat deaths resulted from missile hits on armored vehicles -- or on buildings where Israeli soldiers set up observation posts or conducted searches. Some antitank missiles also can be used to attack helicopters, which has limited the military's use of choppers in rescues and other operations. On Saturday, Hezbollah shot down a CH-53 Sikorsky helicopter in Lebanon, killing all five crew members, according to the Israeli military. As of late Sunday, Israeli troops still had been unable to retrieve the bodies because of fierce fighting in the area of the crash. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/13/AR2006081300719.html
 
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swhitebull    RE:The Best Guerrilla Force in the World   8/14/2006 11:48:48 AM
The article left out one VERY important point: the IDF had the ABILITY to wipe out the HIzbullies, they didnt have the political WILL to do so - Olmert is an idiot bending with the political winds. There is NO doubt that the IDF could take out Hizbollah - quickly- if the government had given the OK to do so. What you see on the cameras has NOTHING to do with what was going on quietly. It's like an old tree that stands and stands and stands, then, unexpectedly, BREAKS and FALLS. Hizbollah was no different, as happened to the same level of commitment by the Taliban -the QUAGMIRE! THE QUAGMIRE! Then, as the Greeks out it - The Trolope, or suddenly disappearance of morale. Field reports from the IDF were showing this same pattern with the Hizbollies in the last several days. BLAME Olmert and his dithering that it wasnt achieved, NOT to the 'World's Best Guerillas'. swhitebull - Im sure the Viet Cong and Viet Minh would dispute the article's assertion - big time. And btw - was it written by military analysts? or by foreign correspondents, who usually have at best a minimum grasp of what the military is all about?
 
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harry2006    RE: Israeli govt under fire   8/14/2006 11:49:15 AM
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-08-14T150952Z_01_L14241316_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-OLMERT.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C1-topNews-10 Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert began a battle for his political survival on Monday by acknowledging shortcomings in the conduct of a month-long war with Hizbollah but saying the fight had been worthwhile. Opinion polls show public support eroding for Olmert, a career politician who lacks the combat credentials of many of his predecessors. He has faced a backlash over his decision to accept the U.N. resolution and for failing to deliver a fatal blow to Hizbollah. Army officers have said they were held back and right-wing rivals have been calling for new elections. The next national ballot is not due until 2010. "There were ... shortcomings. We will have to examine ourselves at all levels," Olmert told parliament, hours after Defense Minister Amir Peretz promised a thorough investigation of Israel's conduct of the war.
 
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harry2006    RE: LOSER WHINING   8/14/2006 11:53:46 AM
"There is NO doubt that the IDF could take out Hizbollah - quickly- if the government had given the OK to do so. " Friend, this is a LOSER'S WHINING...Israel sent 30,000 troops into Lebanon, a superior force with tanks, planes, and vastly superior weaponry against a few thousand Hezbollah guerillas, and they could not: 1. Dislodge the Hezbollah from the border areas. 2. They could not stop the rocket fire into Israel from the border area. 3. They could not retrieve the captured Isareali soldiers that started the shooting. It is telling that the IDF could not even retrieve the bodies from the fallen IDF helicopter because of fierce Hezbollah resistance.
 
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Clausewitz    RE:Not the IDF - OLmert and Perez lost the war   8/14/2006 12:50:12 PM
Well, hezbollah was a well trained, determined, motivated and equipped enemy worth the IDF. It was a nearly terrain for them. In this mountainous, bushy south Lebanon country side they could hide inside their tunnels ausing ATGM at long ranges. That was no terrain for mobile combined arms warfare. The IDF for sure knew that. The difference was that Hezbollah got a plan and Israel did not have any. There where alternatives. Israel could have avoided the war to wage the war later at a time of her choice (my favorite). Or Israel should have waged real war with early mobilisation and early massive ground operations. Maybe the time was right to escalte the war with action against Syria. With Merkavas rolling in Damascus there would be a real chance that Syria would have stopped arming Hezbollah in the future. Even a wider escaltion against iranian nuke and oil facilities would have served Israels interests. The country was united. There was a real chance to win big. But Olmert and Perez prefered to wage a halfhearted war. They feared casualties and it seems they did not get this rare wind of history. They had no plan. They failed as leaders. Now the IDF reputation is damaged in the arab world. Many palastinanians and other muslims now guess they know what to do in the middle east. Terrorists are enlightend. Sadly israel - and the west as whole - will pay with blood for this. It is as if the dems would rule Israel.
 
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jaythehistorian    RE: LOSER WHINING   8/14/2006 1:36:35 PM
<> 1. The IDF did not commit a sufficient ground force until 2 days before the cease fire (because of OlMUTT) 2.Hezbollah had turned southern Lebanon Iwo Jima-like fortress in the 6 years they had control. 3. To add, to their "defense" they hide (not wearing uniforms) among civilians . so they could go crying to the MSM when Israel attempted to destroy the rockets 4. The analogy with Iwo JIMA is enlightening: Unlike the US Marines who had a limited time to completely clear the island of Japan troops, Israel, to minimize casaulties, at first opted for Air attacks and special ops only. Only when that wasn't sufficient did they committ significant ground forces. Given another 4-6 weeks, Southern Lebanon would be totally cleared of Hezbollah. Even after the latest ground offensive began, Israeli troops, unlike US troops on Iwo Jima, used more time observing possible Hezbollah bunkers ,rather than frontally attacking which would have caused more casaulties. When the cease fire is broken the IDF will be able to finish the job. To adequately, locate and isolate all of the Hezbollah bunkers and positions in houses etc.while minimizing casaulties among the "civilians" and their own troops ,they may need up to another 6 weeks. Hezbollah is no match for the IDF. Hezbollah are still around because of political considerations only. Hezbollah's long-term goal of destroying Israel was not advanced but probably is further than ever from fruition. Their short-term goal of getting Israel to exchange baby murderers held by Israel for the 2 Israeli soldiers was not accomplished. Hezbollah's capabilities were severely degraded. They took many more casaulties both in overall numbers and percentate of fighters. Their infrastructure has been seriously damaged. The infrastructure of Lebanon has been severely damaged and the non Shia Lebanonese are even more hostile to the Shia and their Iranian army Hezbollah. The Arabs and their dhimmi supporters have a strange definition of military victory. Iwo Jima withstood incredible shelling from US Navy battle ships and aerial bombing which caused almost no damage or casaulties,prior to the ground attack. Did that mean the US lost the battle of Iwo Jima? The Japanese didn't have other nations force the US to stop their attack(unlike Hezbollah).
 
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Shirrush    RE:Not the IDF - OLmert and Perez lost the war   8/14/2006 2:54:03 PM
Clausewitz, you surprise me. You're spot on! With the cease-fire, reservists are starting to come home, and to exert their right as citizens to express their opinion of the conduct of the war. This is strongly reminiscent of the aftermath of the 1973 Yom Kippur war, when the Miluimnikim's (the reservists') protest brought about the Agranat inquiry commission. One thing is certain, and there's no need to place bets about it, and it is that neither the government, nor the IDF, will come clean out of this. The operational details and the actual story of the fighting will start to transpire slowly in the coming weeks. The Iwo-Jima comparison is somewhat adequate, and there will probably be interesting analyses of the role of ATGM's in mountainous terrain. My two Agorot are on the twin facts that the Hezz has probably expended more ATGM's than are found in the inventories of most European armies, and that the role of Russia, not only in the manufacture of these Metis-M (that can be fired from enclosures) and long-range laser beam-riding Kornets, but also in the training of their terrorist users, will be elucidated in a stunning manner.
 
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Herc the Merc    I just received Olmert's resume   8/14/2006 3:12:37 PM
salary open-process-H-1B-He threw in Peres at no charge as a lab assistant. Shamir type needed.
 
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swhitebull    NOthing Like a Joke in Times of Trouble   8/14/2006 3:32:12 PM
The angels come to God after he has finished with creation and ask why he has favored the Jews so heavily. "You've given them a land of milk and honey, of olives, barley, dates and pomegranates," they say."They're gonna have have Nobel Prize winners, artists and scientists way out of proportion to their numbers. It's not fair!" "Oh yeah?" God says. "Wait till you see the neighbors I gave them." swhitebull
 
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Herc the Merc    Olmert proving to be a media patsy again   8/14/2006 3:43:56 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060814/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_1097 BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said Monday that his guerrillas achieved a "strategic, historic victory" against Israel — a declaration that prompted celebratory gunfire across the Lebanese capital. Israel's prime minister, however, maintained the offensive eliminated the "state within a state" run by Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. And then God said--we would make Olmert PM to make peace with the neighbours-- Nobody won the war so why is Olmert "responding" to Nasrallah--it only makes Nasrallah look bigger than he is--is this guy for real??? You know the Nobel peace prize is not really a big deal anymore...considering the way its awarded Ehud might just get it-
 
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Herc the Merc    Ehud pulls out again or stuck????   8/14/2006 4:08:40 PM
West Bank & Jerusalem--next bones of contention.
 
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