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Subject: Analysis: Nobody's victory, but in the end Israel could not defeat Hizbollah
joes    8/12/2006 11:02:57 PM
link ------------------------------------------ A month of fighting, more than 1,000 dead, upwards of 800,000 Lebanese displaced and $2bn worth of damage - for what? Who wins in this bloody debacle, assuming it is coming to an end? Given the continued fighting, that is still a big assumption. Not Israel, certainly. Even while the authors of this military adventure continue to try to carve out some notion of victory to sell the Israeli public, increasingly fewer people are buying it. The likes of deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres have tried to promote the notion that Israel has got everything it wants out of the war - and from Friday's disgracefully late UN resolution calling for an immediate cessation of violence (on which Israel is still being permitted by the US to drag its feet) - but the reality is that the prosecutors of this war have lost more than they have won. Whatever Israel does now, it is seriously diminished. In military terms it has been confronted successfully for a second time by the guerillas of Hizbollah. Again and again, its heavily-armoured Merkava tanks have been rocketed to a standstill. All its technology and its large army have been shown lacking the deftness and determination of a vastly smaller force lacking armoured vehicles, bombers and aircraft. Most seriously, its vulnerability to missile attack has been amply demonstrated to any enemy, despite its possession of US anti-missile batteries. Israel has lost one of its most powerful weapons - the psychological sense of its military invulnerability. ...... So who has won? Not Israel. Certainly not Lebanon or its fragile democracy, the development of both of which will have been pushed back half a decade and more. But what about Hizbollah? What can be said is that, on its own terms, it has not lost. Not yet. It has resisted Israel and thus far at least has survived, which was all it had to achieve. If it continues to survive until an international force is deployed - which seems likely - then the issue of its disarmament will have disappeared again into some vague future. In psychological terms, it can claim that its few fighters have inflicted disproportionate damage on the Israelis for a second time, and put the issue of the Shebaa farms on the negotiating table.
 
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relic    RE:Analysis: Nobody's victory, but in the end Israel could not defeat Hizbollah    8/12/2006 11:55:52 PM
Typical BS from the Guardian. Bottom line: 1) Israel survives. Hizb suffers. 2) If need be, Israel rolls up Hizb, and their sponsors (that's you Syria and Iran) with frighting ease. Nothing changes.
 
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joes    Washington Post: As Mideast Smoke Clears, Political Fates May Shift   8/13/2006 12:23:03 AM
link ------------------------------------------------ Although the outcome will be long debated, big losers at this stage appear to be Israel's government, the Lebanese people, and the Bush administration's struggle against terrorism and its campaign for democracy, these observers said. In waging the longest Arab war against Israel, the big winner may be Hezbollah leader Hasan Nasrallah -- for now. One surprise has been the strong leadership of neophyte Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora. Yet every party has lost something. "This is a war that has not had a clear logic, but it does have a large number of casualties and losers," said Robert Malley of the Brussels-based International Crisis Group. "Israel's government is in trouble. Lebanon as a country has lost a lot. U.S. standing is worse. Democracy promotion has been hurt. The credibility of the U.N. Security Council has been eroded. Even the anti-terror agenda has lost. So on almost every count, you see diminished assets and credibility." Israel lost by failing to achieve its strategic objectives in response to the capture of its soldiers, analysts said. It has already paid a huge political, physical and psychological price -- with perhaps more to come, as Prime Minister Ehud Olmert appears imperiled, they added. "The pressure is rising in Israel to interpret this as a debacle. Israel is nowhere close to having achieved its goal of destroying Hezbollah or its arsenal. It will also have to deal with the moral and humanitarian crisis that it caused," said Ellen Laipson, president of the Henry L. Stimson Center, a defense think tank, and formerly of the National Intelligence Council. "It looks like the denouement will create a crisis in Israeli politics that will not be easily fixable." The conflict has affected Israeli civilians more than in any previous war, with the northernmost quarter of the country fleeing sustained Hezbollah missile attacks, analysts noted. It has proved that Israel cannot force peace through military means, said former U.S. ambassador to Israel Edward P. Djerejian.
 
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EW3    RE:joes   8/13/2006 12:26:50 AM
There is a reason that it is called the washington compost. If El WaPo wanted to tell the big story, it would be about the fraud carried out by Reuters and the AP. But then, we can't rat out a fellow rat.
 
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joes    RE: Here's why the Hez are winning   8/13/2006 1:01:42 AM
Here's one reason why Hezbollah is winning a guerilla war. Because the people, even little kids, are behind them. link The problem between Arabs and Israelis won't be resolved in the battlefield. It will be won in the negotiating tables.
 
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bender    RE: Here's why the Hez are winning   8/13/2006 9:47:18 AM
Looks to me like the little kids are in front of them.(the brave hizboolies need something to hide behind. oh,and how do you define winning...seems like claiming you won a fight because the other guy really bruised his fist on your face
 
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reefdiver    RE: Hez winning?   8/13/2006 1:00:12 PM
Hezballoh only appears to have a victory because Israel has showed restraint due to a least some sense of morality. The Israeli's could have obliterated Hezbollah - along with all of Lebanon in the process. I'd call Hez's showing a "bitter victory". Interesting how a victory for Hez can be defined as still having the ability to launch rockets at civilians, while hundreds of Lebanons civilians were killed and billions of dollars of infrastructure were destroyed by the enemy - all with virtually nothing gained by Hez in a war it foolishly provoked to prove nothing more than they have some bigs ones between their legs. Is this the new definition of victory - having survived at all regardless of the cost?
 
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Plutarch    RE: Hez winning?   8/13/2006 4:31:31 PM
" Is this the new definition of victory - having survived at all regardless of the cost?" What were Israel's strategic objectives. To diminish Hezbollah's capabilites, signifcantly and the return of its two soliders. Did the Israleis accomplish these goals? No. Hez's capabilites increased during the war or at least were not diminished...reports that the Israelis killed 20 percent of Hez fighters cannot be verified. If this was true then we would have seen a signifcant reduction in Hez's ability to fight...yet the Hez still can inflict realtively heavy casualties on Israel. If it is true that Israel could have "obliterated Hezbollah" and then did not, is that not a failure of leadership? Olhmert had a plan from the Israeli army to go in at full strengh and he rejected it, instead his concern over "civilian" casualties led to this morass. Far better to have gone in with overwhelming force and knock out Hez and sustain whatever fall out from the media over "civilian" casualties. At least Hez would be knocked out and we know the press reports would stay the same.
 
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kane    RE:Analysis: Nobody's victory, but in the end Israel could not defeat Hizbollah    8/13/2006 6:13:23 PM
Hezbollah gained much more support from Lebonan and world, thanks to Israel.
 
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Admiral Kirk    RE: Hez winning?/or not winning   8/13/2006 6:19:43 PM
Hiz has not won anything. How can you come to this conclusion. What has Hiz won? Israel has one of the best Militaries around. They have taken pain-staking restraint to ensure minimum civilian casualties. They do have the might to wipe Lebannon off the face of the Earth dude. With some assistance from the US, Israel can take on the entire Middle East. Just because some reports indicate that Hiz has had some luck destroying some Israeli tanks.....does not constitute a win. Sometimes I wish the Israelis took no precautions at all and just went in and destroyed everything. But then, they would be critized for too many civilian casaulties. I hate war. I also do not care for the folks who start the flipping war to begin with. Can anyone support your reasoning on why Hiz has won this conflict or is winning it? Admiral Kirk
 
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swhitebull    RE:Analysis: Nobody's victory, but in the end Israel could not defeat Hizbollah    8/13/2006 6:41:07 PM
From John Podhoretz, National Review: The Arabs, said the Israeli politician Abba Eban, "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." The news this morning that the Hezbollah ministers in the Lebanese cabinet have said they're keeping their weapons in South Lebanon ? despite the language of the U.N. ceasefire ? may be the most recent fulfillment of Eban's dictum. All Hezbollah has to do is keep quiet and smile and it will not be disarmed by the Lebanese army or the "robust international force" or anybody else. If it chooses this kind of open, in-your-face provocation, the ceasefire dies, Israel goes all-out and Hezbollah is mortally wounded. swhitebull
 
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