Israel Defense Forces: Revenge Killings

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gixxxerking RE:Israel Defense Forces: Revenge Killings 6/4/2005 12:43:12 AM

"If this is investigated (we'll see about that) and it turns out to be true, this could be a monumental case against Israel." Hmmm...lets see. Monumental compared to what? Blowing up civilian women and childred. Or how about cutting the heads off POWs? Sounds a lot like the pot calling the kettle black to me.

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gixxxerking How rude of me... 6/4/2005 12:49:26 AM

...Hi Left Flank. I'm Gixxxerking. You will be reading a lot from me in the future. I'll be the one ripping you to shreads if you post rediculous post. You see, I have no life. I'm a new dad now so that means between work and dealing with the little one I get to sit by a computer most of my waking life. Please try to not get yourself kicked off SP anytime soon. Its really easy to do, TRUST ME. Anyway I look forward to destroying your arguments. Have a great night.

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Left Flank gixxerking 6/4/2005 12:57:41 AM

Nice to meet you. Please, feel free, destroy away. I relish the opportunity to hear your views, listen to your arguments, and pass judgement on you. So, yes, IDF members are coming out and admitting that they have been given orders to kill people indiscriminately in an eye-for-an-eye quest for revenge. This is a war crime.

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gixxxerking RE:gixxerking 6/4/2005 1:07:29 AM

"So, yes, IDF members are coming out and admitting that they have been given orders to kill people indiscriminately in an eye-for-an-eye quest for revenge. This is a war crime." --Left Flank Maybe so. It would niether suprise or offend me to find out this is true. In the real world, thats how wars are fought. IMO, thats how the should be fought. To me, the only true war crime is losing. And I practice what I preach. But how is it possible that this issue gets so much attention. But a HOMICIDE BOMBER in a night club where 20 CIVILIANS die doesnt? Start by explaining that.

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Left Flank RE:gixxerking 6/4/2005 1:39:31 AM

At least you are honest. I appreciate that. "Maybe so." What about all the moral equivalence talk? This sort of thing means "we" are as bad as "them" - we have laws and rules and ethics to abide by. Don't you think this particular IDF action results in great distrust and a cycle of violence? "But how is it possible that this issue gets so much attention. But a HOMICIDE BOMBER in a night club where 20 CIVILIANS die doesnt? Start by explaining that." Sure. You are dead wrong. Violence committed by Palestinians is plastered all over the news. It is widely reported. This IDF revelation has BARELY been covered anywhere. Let's wait until tomorrow and see if there is any substantial coverage. Don't you think it merits coverage? It's pretty big news when soldiers come out and admit that their commanders instruct them to murder innocent people.

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gixxxerking RE:gixxerking 6/4/2005 4:16:29 AM

Moral equivilence? Hell to me I dont look for equivalence. Its war. I choose the Israeli side. Whatever it takes to win is right. Not only do I want to be as "bad" as my enemy. I want to be "badder". Because then they will fear me. And that fear will keep the peace. And is it fails to keep the peace, it will make the peace after I slaughter the enemy. Only here in the west do we play these silly morality games while at the same time we drop fire and steel on other humans. I have never and will never be a hypocrit.

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Shirrush RE: So what? 6/4/2005 7:17:46 AM

Revenge killings eh? Finally, some of this is starting to make the headlines. I do not think I am the only Israeli civilian that was truly saddened and distraught by the LACK of a revenge component in our army's actions against our Palestinian enemies. Now I see that our assumption that retribution was not being delivered at all was inaccurate, and based on the media's flawed and partial reporting. (Israeli media routinely self-censor on defense matters, rather more in order to spare themselves issues with their readership than out of fear of the authorities, and, besides, they can't be everywhere.) Quick, no-holds barred retribution is a strategic as well as a moral necessity. First of, it establishes a dialogue with our enemies, in the very language of blood that they best understand. Since they understand it so well, it has a great deterrent value, and fact is that no further attacks on IDF forces in that specific area resulted in any comparable amount of casualties. Thirdly, this does a great job alleviating the grief of the fallen's comrades, friends, relatives as well as the rest of the people of Israel, and because of this, helps greatly in returning the grief-stricken affected unit to a saner, level-headed and more efficient mode of operation in what is probably the most abnormal, stressing and pathological environment, combat. The very fact that it is one of the soldiers that participated in this quite limited revenge expedition that came out and blew the whistle is even more telling. No Israeli soldier is taught to kill in cold blood, and conscience is bred into everyone at an early stage of a Jewish, or Druze education. While vengeance might feel good in the spur of the moment, and certainly does for those like myself in the further, not directly involved circle, killing a human being is a terribly traumatizing experience, the more so when it cannot be rationalized as self-defense or something like that. I would therefore like to ask the rational, non-leftist posters on this board to refrain from judging these soldiers or even their commanders, not for the killings themselves (all the victims were adult males, which makes them more or less legitimate targets), and obviously not for yielding to their conscience and coming out in the open and tell.

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Shirrush RE: Ah, yes! 6/4/2005 8:53:15 AM

Just in case you haven't caught WTF we're talking about when it was on the news: link The whole site makes a nice read IMO, and is a great help explaining our American friends why stopping the war for a while could be the way to winning it without losing our soul to it.

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swhitebull RE:Israel Defense Forces: Revenge Killings 6/4/2005 11:03:12 AM

...What do you make of the news from current and former Israeli military who admit that they have participated in revenge killing, targeting any number of Palestinians in order to equal the score? If this is investigated (we'll see about that) and it turns out to be true, this could be a monumental case against Israel. How will Israel react to the news? I'm sure its PR machine must be in overdrive concocting ways to minimize this highly damaging situation.... Yes, Lefty - your latest attempt to slur and slander with your use of words has redounded upon your head. What you have inadvertently done - THANK YOU for your ignorance of History - is to outline THE CORRECT approach for a country whose primary obligation is to protect its OWN citizens, not kowtow nor give in to the niceties and conventions of war for a group that doesnt recognize the rules of war. Several historical approaches come to mind that would be totally and wholly appropriate and justified for further depredations by PALIs against the Israeli civilians. 1)Israel can follow the British model as ruthlessly and efficiently promulgated by them against the Boers in the 2nd Boer war, and against Jewish Holocaust survivors fleeting to Palestine from 1946-1948 - round up the citizen base and put them in detention camps, thus depriving the terrorists of a base to: a) draw additional support and recruitment from; and b) makes hunting down said terrorists that much easier, since if you are NOT in the detention camps, you MUST be engaged in terrorist activity. Unfortunately, this approach would probably draw the usual condemnation from "concerned" groups in Europe. OTOH, except from idiots like you who has no clue, it would probably be met by cheers by most REAL Americans, who now understand what it is like to be the victim of unprovoked terrorist attacks. YOU HUNT THEM DOWN, then kill them like PIGS. 2) The Russian GROZNY model - level Gaza. You give a 48 hour notice that the operation is to be conducted, and that the citizens must leave. Where? Their problem. You detain ALL military age males as they flee. THEN YOU LEVEL the place - TOTALLY, from one end of the strip to the other. NO MERCY. If the world didnt scream when Grozny was destroyed, or when the Syrians leveled Homs (which YOU seem to omit in your vitriol against Israel - that good old anti-Semitic double standard you deny having), the world MIGHT scream for a day or two, but bottom line is - they're ONLY Palestinians harboring terrorists, which makes the population culpable. NO ONE REALLY CARES. 3) Continue building a moat, fill it with waters from the Mediterranean, and dig it as deep as possible so that as many PALI tunnel rats as possible drown. 4) Russian model - Beirut-style, and Turks - Korean war - EVERY TIME an Israeli citizen is murdered by a PALI - for whatever reason - the Beit Shin goes in - Orde Wingate variation) and the perpetrators' family members are targetted for immediate assassination. You leave some with double grins, others will get the message. Threaten to destroy the PALI's family, the attacks will cease. Blood is thicker in that part of the world. 5) Orde Wingate Model - Gideon's Warriors - special Ops forces - all Sephardic, all Arab-speaking, go undercover deeply and pinpoint/infiltrate into all aspects of Palestinian life. EACH AND EVERY TIME an Israeli citizens is murdered, the decimation strategy is implemented. Suddenly, prominent PALI leaders are suddenly found with slit throats, bank accounts are purged from PALI businessmen, market places are bombed, etc. Not to mention that a cutoff of all goods and services that Israeli GENEROUSLY provides to support the Palestinian infrastructure and economy - which they really dont have to - is IMMEDIATELY imposed until the perpetrators are turned over to the Israelis - NOT THE PALI authorities. No revolving door here. And it won't take much for the Palestinian leadership to get the message and disarm the PALI terrorists. Does this sound harsh? Not at all. Its already been done by the Brits, the Russians, the French and the Americans (geez, WE didnt hold to democratic values during WW2 not in fighting the VC?- what a surprise). I'm just surprised that Israel has restrained itself as well as it has - I doubt ANY other country - the US included (afghanistan and Iraq) would have shown such restraint in the face of relentless attacks against its citizenry. swhitebull - TY again Lefty, for your INCITEFUL but accidently cogent thoughts here. It's time to take the kid gloves off, and grind the PALI SCUM into the dirt.

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Shirrush RE: Erratum 6/4/2005 11:10:52 AM

Sorry, me very, very bad, and me was talking outa my arse this time. I had claimed in my first post on this thread that avenging the Eyn Arik roadblock dead had served the purpose of preventing all further such attacks on roadblocks in this particular area of the Binyamin Region, and of course I was horribly wrong! I promise to double-check with Google, my mom, and myself before posting next time! Less than a fortnight after the horrible Eyn Arik massacre, on the 4th of March, 2002 to be precise, a lone Fatah sniper, comfortably hidden on a rocky, wooded hill above the Wadi Haramyiah roadblock that the IDF had set up on the main road leading from Ram-Allah to Nablus at the insistance of the settlers from 'Ofra and 'Ali, took the lives of ten people in half an hour, with 40 rounds from the vintage Lee-Enfield rifle he abandoned before casually walking home to nearby Silwad. Of these, three were civilians, and seven, the armed soldiers of this permanent roadblock, that had been set up in the middle of nowhere in a tactically undefendable hollow, under pressure from the settlers, at an old British mandate police station, one of these little "Taggart" forts, but on the road outside of it, in plain view of both slopes above it. The distance between Eyn Arik and the British police roadblock is less than 15 km, in a straight line from SW to NE, that also comprises, at almost equidistant locations, the Surda (02/15/02) and the Dura-al-Qaryia (11/26/01) roadblocks that had undergone similar, although not quite as deadly attacks under the same watch of the Binyamin Region commanders, none of which of course having had to answer to anyone, of course, for this murderous series of operational failures. This massacre was only avenged a month later, when the full force of the "Grapes of Wrath" offensive effectively neutered all the Pali militias in the Binyiamin/Ram-Allah area, and walled Arafat out for good in his Muq'ata. The sniper, Taher Qaad, a Fatah terrorist that had acted on his own, was caught by the GSS in October 2004, and jailed.

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jastayme3 RE: So what? 7/9/2005 3:13:51 PM

One time the Special Night Squads trashed an Arab villiage in revenge for helping bandits they believed to be sheltering there. Wingate apparently felt guilty for that and made his lads spend several hours listening to a lecture on proper behavior toward civilians. Perhaps overlenient but it was something. The Irguns and Sterns as all know, commited a massacare during the '48. They were disavowed by the rest. The IDF didn't do as much of that because they mostly fought rommel-patton type wars(though border fighting always continued). On the whole the Israelis have behaved less badly then most but they are not unstained. Immigrant wars are always nasty, more so then mere power struggles. Nontheless the Israeli's have a pretty good(unbad might be a better term) record)given the situation. However they are not perfect.

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jastayme3 RE:Israel Defense Forces: Revenge Killings 7/9/2005 3:17:18 PM

Probably the fence will work best

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sentinel28a RE:Israel Defense Forces: Revenge Killings 7/10/2005 6:25:06 PM

Hell, no one is stainless. As our pro-CCP posters take particular glee in pointing out, the US had its share of massacres on the frontier in the 1800s, and No Gun Ri and My Lai in the 20th Century. The difference between the US Army and the IDF, and the PLA and Syria, is that the occasional terrible mistakes committed by the US Army and the IDF were not state policy.

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jastayme3 RE:Israel Defense Forces: Revenge Killings 7/11/2005 1:58:11 PM

no one is stainless. As our pro-CCP posters take particular glee in pointing out, the US had its share of massacres on the frontier in the 1800s, and No Gun Ri and My Lai in the 20th Century. The difference between the US Army and the IDF, and the PLA and Syria, is that the occasional terrible mistakes committed by the US Army and the IDF were not state policy. ------------------------- amen

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WinsettZ RE:Israel Defense Forces: Revenge Killings 7/11/2005 3:18:40 PM

[insert conspiracy theory here] "no one is stainless", eh? Excellent. I must keep that on record... :P

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