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Subject: Jews' Talmud vs. Muslims' Koran
Billiam    2/15/2005 11:04:41 AM
I agree that a lot can be derived about a religion & culture from the teachings its society confers on its members. I've always believed religion is a major cause of conflict in the world, perhaps *the* primary driver. I've seen a lot of people bashing the Koran. If the writing it to be taken literally, rightfully so: there's a lot of racist, intolerant, savage, and downright violent messages in there. But - is the Talmud, the Jewish holy book, any different? Traditionally, the Talmud is the supreme sourcebook of Law, as it takes the rules listed in the Torah and describes how to apply them to different circumstances. Take a look at some of these "holy" instructions taken from the Talmud, and make a judgment on whether these philosophies make a positive impact on its followers. "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." TALMUD: Baba Mezia, 114b. "The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture says to honor the dog more than the non-Jew." TALMUD:Ereget Raschi Erod, 22 30. "Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming of a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form." TALMUD: Midrasch Talpioth, p 225, Warsaw 1855. "A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal." TALMUD: Coschen Hamischpat 405. "Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew as a monkey to a human." TALMUD: Schene luchoth haberuth, p 250b. "The souls of non-Jews come from impure spirits and are called pigs." TALMUD: Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b. "If you eat with a non-Jew it is the same as eating with a dog." TALMUD: Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b. "If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his animals had died."" TALMUD: Jore Dea 377. "Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals." TALMUD: Sanhedrin 74b. "It is permitted to take the body and life of a gentile." TALMUD: Sepher Ikkarim III c 25. "It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah." TALMUD: Coschen Hamischpat, Hagah 425. "A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands." TALMUD: Abodah Zara, 4b. "Every Jew who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God." TALMUD: Bammidber raba c 21 & jalkut 772. I don't know about you, but just because I'm not Jewish, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't be looked at as a beastly canine unworthy of dining in the company of a Jew. And if I were a gentile, well, then, shoot, it would be like a sacrifice to God to kill me?? Thanks a lot! So, I guess we shouldn't take religious scripture so seriously. If we did, then we'd have to indict the Jewish faith in the same manner that we criticize Islam, etc. My opinion.
 
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swhitebull    RE:Jews' Talmud vs. Muslims' Koran   2/15/2005 12:39:54 PM
BIG DIFFERENCE - as any LEARNED person who actually KNOWS talmud, rather thanour returning putz troll going to antiSemitic websites and cutting and pasting - is that CHERRY-PICKING the TALMUD for such comments is meaningless. 1) Talmud is NOT a sacred book, as this bozo claims. Its an interpretation of the TORAH, which IS the holy book. 2) The Quran - and adherents of it - DO interpret TODAY - ACTIVELY - tenets of wife beating, killing the infidel, racial superiority, etc. Judaism and the Talmud DO NOT practice TODAY such interpretations 3) If you are interested in such things, might we suggest contacting the Brothers of Aryas organization? They will fill you in completely. 4) My guess is that your tenure here will last about as long as your other incarnations. swhitebull - same troll, different name - again.
 
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battar    RE:Jews' Talmud vs. Muslims' Koran   2/15/2005 3:01:31 PM
Billiam. 1. Your comment smells of intolerance and bigotry. I would guess that although you do not respect the teachings of the talmud, you have found somewhere a "holy" book of some religion or other which you accept unquestioningly. 2. All holy books make sense in their own time and culture. They cannot be transferred to our own time. For example, 200 years ago the slave trade was legitimate in the USA, today it is a criminal offence. What could we learn today about the morals of the USA from a book writen 200 years ago? 3. No religious teaching should be taken "on faith". Belief is not a substitute for an education. 4. All religions are bigoted and intolerant. If you don't like it, take up atheism.
 
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Godofgamblers    RE:Jews' Talmud vs. Muslims' Koran   2/15/2005 9:29:42 PM
well said, battar. but i don't agree that all religions are "bigoted and intolerant", just some of their followers.
 
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YidFunDorum    RE:Jews' Talmud vs. Muslims' Koran   2/15/2005 10:48:41 PM
You know, Bilaam, I did some checking on the quotes you presented (it helps to have "Soncino Classics" on my hard drive for this, who knew it would be so handy?), and there are some gaps in what you're claiming these tractates say. This is compounded by the fact that you either intentionally garbled the titles, or you don't know how to transliterate these into English properly, neither of which say much for your 'scholarship'. In any case, the below are my prelim results: "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." TALMUD: Baba Mezia, 114b. ----- Folio 114b is actually referring to cleanliness of Priests, and obliquely admonishes Priests to not even defile graves of Gentiles in order for the Cohen (Priest) to stay clean. The "beasts" you mention are the "beasts in the field" in Ezekiel 34:31 which this folio generally references, and literally means wild animals in Canaan. Somehow you crossed up these separate references to mean something completely different. "The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture says to honor the dog more than the non-Jew." TALMUD:Ereget Raschi Erod, 22 30.----- Can you clarify what the source is here? "Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming of a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form." TALMUD: Midrasch Talpioth, p 225, Warsaw 1855. ----Can you clarify what the source is here? "A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal." TALMUD: Coschen Hamischpat 405.----- Can you clarify what the source is here? "Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew as a monkey to a human." TALMUD: Schene luchoth haberuth, p 250b. Can you clarify what the source is here? "The souls of non-Jews come from impure spirits and are called pigs." TALMUD: Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b. ----- Can you clarify what the source is here? "If you eat with a non-Jew it is the same as eating with a dog." TALMUD: Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b. ---- Folio 94b actually deals with permission to marry a dead wife's relatives. Jebamoth=Yevamos, or A female whose husband has passed away (G-d forbid), and has to marry one of her husband's relatives to maintain his bloodline. Eating? no. Eating with non-Jews? still, no. Check again your reference, please. "If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his animals had died."" TALMUD: Jore Dea 377. --- Can you clarify what the source is here? "Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals." TALMUD: Sanhedrin 74b. ---- This folio talks about Gentiles forcing Jews to violate the Sabbath; it brings up, as an example, Ahashuerus forcing Esther to 'satisfy' him as part of a idol-worshipping festival of some sort. Helping idol-worshippers celebrate their festivals & holidays in any way, shape or form (even selling fruits!) is a big no-no for us Jews! Just for your edification, their are certain leniencies to this when it comes to other "Peoples of the Book" (i.e. Christians & Muslims) "It is permitted to take the body and life of a gentile." TALMUD: Sepher Ikkarim III c 25. -----Can you clarify what the source is here? "It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah." TALMUD: Coschen Hamischpat, Hagah 425. ---- Can you clarify what the source is here? "A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands." TALMUD: Abodah Zara, 4b. Folio 4b is a continuation from 4a on the story of Billiam & Balak (fancy that!), and delves into some of the liturgy to be used for the Rosh HaShanah Musaf service (i.e. New Year's Additional service) Killing Gentiles? Yes, but only those who prophesy against Israel, not just any ole Gentile, though. "Every Jew who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God." TALMUD: Bammidber raba c 21 & jalkut 772. ---- This refers very, very specifically to the Midianites, Ammonites, & Moabites, and to the prohibition against allowing these peoples to enter into the Tribes of Israel. I suppose, if I were a spiritual descendant of them as you are, I would take this the wrong way, too. Well, I look forward to any clarifications and rebuttals you may have, Bilaam.
 
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swhitebull    RE:Jews' Talmud vs. Muslims' Koran   2/15/2005 11:07:53 PM
How 'bout we start with some of these FALSE Talmud quotes - Man, I LOVE Google: He got a lot of crap from antiSemitic sources such as these: http://www.compuserb.com/talmud1.htm http://thejewstalmudspeaks.tripod.com/index.html Billiam is the VILEST type of dog - and I mean that literally and figuratively - one that eats its own waste. Glad he posted these bogus citations - he proves the point that the only good anti-Semite is one that is exposed to the light of truth - along with being a dead one. We continue: ....If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his animals had died."" TALMUD: Jore Dea 377... http://www.frum.org/talmud/index3.asp This website debunks many of these bogus citations. swhitebull - nothing like debunking an anti-Semitic schmuck's rantings and attempts to be "fair" to top off the day's work
 
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Shirrush    RE: The Great Book of Absolutely Everything   2/16/2005 7:32:23 AM
How do I get "Soncino Classics" on my hard drive too? Some of Billiam's bogus quotes seem to have been extracted from medieval rabbinical literary sources amalgamated with the Talmud itself, or have been outright invented, such as "Coshen (?) Mishpat", "Yalkut Reuveni Gadol", "Yoreh De'a", and "Ereget Raschi Erod", which, even in Aramaic, means nothing. To take a step back and look at things rationally, well, it should be said that the Talmud is a huge, multilayered (> 5M words) body of mostly legal tradition dealing with every imaginable question of life, from the most crucial to the most ridiculous, and is at least as discursive in nature as the SP boards. For every question (soogyiah), you have more than one opinion, and there often is more than one proposed solution. The Talmud Bavli has been compiled from the 2nd to the 5th century AD, in the pre-Islamic, Persian-dominated Mesopotamia. It should be viewed, as it rarely is indeed, in it's historical context. At the time, Mesopotamia, located between two waning empires, was rich enough, and peaceful enough to allow a bunch of people to spend a lot of time arguing about absolutely everything, and to keep an accurate record of their proceedings in the vernacular language of the time, Aramaic. (Aramaic only LOOKS like Hebrew, >sigh<, and the Talmud has only been translated into that language recently, by Rabbi 'Adin Steinsalz.). As such, it is a truly wonderful window-in-time, where historians could find everything from long-forgotten technologies and medical procedures, to the psychology and the mindset of ordinary people in the 2nd century, if they'd only care to go look. Religious Jews regard the Talmud as sacred and G_d-given, the compilation of a previously orally-transmitted Law, all the way from Moses himself. Since no Jew can be reasonably expected to know, let alone understand, everything that's in it, the Oral Law has been "compressed" into shorter, more actionable works such as the "Shulhan 'Arukh", by medieval rabbis. These books are at the basis of the Orthodox Jew's everyday behavior code today, and little has changed for them indeed, since the darkest days of medieval Europe. It is clear that the Talmud cannot be compared with the Qur'an. The Jewish TaNa"Ch (The Bible minus the New Testament) is the Jew's "revealed" text, and that's what you may compare with the Qur'an (if you're really serious about it.) There is a large body of Islamic jurisprudence somewhere (I forgot how it's called) that you may want to compare with the Talmud if you're really into earning a PhD in Comparative Religion. One important difference should be noted, however, and this is the way Jews and Muslims relate to their respective Holy Books: For Muslims, the Qur'an is the directly given word of G_d himself and the last Prophecy, and as such should not be discussed or commented under pain of death for heresy. The Jews, on the other hand, have kept busy writing commentaries on the Book, and commentaries on the commentaries and so on, ever since the earliest days of the Mishna, which itself was the primary core of the Talmud, and until this very day.
 
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YidFunDorum    RE: The Great Book of Absolutely Everything - Shirrush   2/16/2005 7:41:35 AM
I ordered it from the Davka website, although I was lucky; I got it on sale for only $289! It even has the Tsuras Ha-Daf, which is not quite as good as it could be, but it gives me a good look at the actual text.
 
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YidFunDorum    RE:Jews' Talmud vs. Muslims' Koran   2/16/2005 7:43:31 AM
Thanks, Swhitebull, these websites I didn't know of. It was fun to go digging like I did, though, haven't done that in some weeks, now.
 
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YidFunDorum    RE: The Great Book of Absolutely Everything - Shirrush   2/16/2005 7:46:34 AM
BTW Shirrush, the body of Islamic Jurisprudence is known as Sharia (I've seen this discussed in other places on StratPage), and Albert Hourani's 'History of the Arab Peoples' has a passable section on it in Chapter 4.
 
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aceofw    RE:Jews' Tora   2/16/2005 3:21:50 PM
While I can't claim to be as a scholar as my friends here, I will just add that if one will simply look in the Tora, speceifcly: Deuteronomy 14:28-29, 16:9-14 and 24:17-22 one will see the Tora clearly states that society must help those in need (those who have no living or land): orphans, widows, and yes, non-jews ("Gerim").
 
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