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Subject: Yom Kippur War-Who won?
AchtungLagg    4/19/2004 3:31:09 PM
The reason i ask "who won" is because if you ask an egyptian, hell tell you that the arabs did. How the f**K can you explain such thinking? Frankly it pisses me off.
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Final Historian    RE:Yom Kippur War-Who won?   4/19/2004 3:34:53 PM
Me too. I mean, they could argue a tie, if they are really extensive on what that means. But a victory? If that is an Arab victory, then what is an Arab Defeat? Its a matter of honor for them. They got trounced in '67, and for them, even a couple of days of triumphs against Israel were worth it, to remove the stain on their honor. The fact that they got walloped in the end doesn't matter, especially because the US held Israel back in the end.
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Worcester    RE:Yom Kippur War-Who won?   4/19/2004 3:58:53 PM
If you visit the Military College Museum in Cairo you'll believe they did win - about half the museum is about the 1973 war. It is very much a matter of pride that they didn't lose and ended up - or so they claim - with more territory than before. This "win" politically allowed Sadat to make peace. The Egyptian sappers used very original high pressure water jets to undercut the Israeli forts in two places at Suez, causing them to collapse and simultaneously forming exit ramps for their armor. Clever idea. Since one of these two failed shortly after H-hour and caused a 6 hour delay in their roll out into Sinai, it is interesting to ponder how far the Egyptians would have got if there had been no hitch - extra 180 miles with twice the armor? The real loser was Moshe Dayan who got fired for not taking our advice that the Egyptians were mobilizing - poor Dayan believed Mossad whose networks in Egypt had been rolled-up and were being fed disinformation maskarovka by the Egyptians and their Russian GRU friends. He wouldn't even believe the NSA data from Cyprus which showed the Egyptian radio net lighting up like a Christmas tree as they rolled out of their barracks. Kudos to Nixon for the SR71 overflights that convince both sides to stop. Not Mossad's finest hour. Good job the Egyptian plan was delayed or the Israelis probably would have had to use a nuke.
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Worcester    RE:Yom Kippur War-Who won?-Final   4/19/2004 4:11:05 PM
"especially because the US held Israel back in the end" From using a nuke because the IDF had almost collapsed? Or pushing further across the canal? You should recall (a) the IDF across the canal were extremely stretched logistically and (b) the Soviets would not permit further advances which is why the US pressed for a ceasefire. How easy it is to forget the Cold War!
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Final Historian    RE:Yom Kippur War-Who won?-Final   4/19/2004 4:15:58 PM
Oops, forgot to mention why the US held Israel back, thanks for pointing out the Soviet connection Worcester.
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AchtungLagg    switebull   4/19/2004 6:45:38 PM
comon switebull and company, i want details.I am especially interested in cases of small israeli units holding off huge arab groups. thanx
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sentinel28a    RE:switebull   4/19/2004 6:58:55 PM
Chaim Herzog's "The Arab-Israeli Wars" is your best bet, ALagg. Israel won because it survived. Egypt managed to salvage some of its lost pride after getting torn apart in '67. Syria was the real loser--not only did it fail to regain the Golan, it got defeated by an army it outnumbered 10 to 1 and by the end was relying on Soviet paras to keep the IDF from going to Damascus.
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swhitebull    That's MR. swhitebull    4/19/2004 7:11:37 PM
OK Everyone knows my views on the war- from a strictly MILITARY POV, the Israelis won hands down - Egyptian army had been strategically and tactically outmanuevered, no reserves, and, despite the fact that the Israeli logistical tail was stretched, Egypt was in far worse case. HOWEVER - the real question is - did Egypt achieve the political goals that a war with Israel would help achieve? Egypt did NOT set out to conquer and destroy Israel; it DID set out to regain a piece of the Sinai and attrit Israeli forces, like it did in the war of attrition 1969-1972. Would such a war lead to peace and a regaining of the Sinai. I can give this an unequivocal yes - its war with Israel enabled Egypt to achieve its political goals - which is really what war is all about. Limited military goals translated into sweeping political gains. NO question. At the same time, Israel's massive military victory over the Egypt - whose surrounded southern army was on the verge of collapse and surrender - forced the realization upon Egypt that the best the Egyptian military could EVER achieve over the IDF was a limited tactical victory, and that it was better to formalize peace between the 2 nations than continue the mostly cold, but sometimes hot war between the countries. Israel's strategic victory, coupled with the "saving face of the initial Egyptian "victory", despite the spin, lead to Camp David and the Peace Treaties. swhitebull - agreed on Herzog's book- its one of my primary sources for the MILITARY events, but you have to filter the political narrative. I'd would read van Creveld as a companion piece, plus pick up an Egyptian source or two.
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AchtungLagg    soviet paras   4/19/2004 7:15:00 PM
i for one think the idf would maul the ruskies...without nukes and overwhelming mass that army was pathetic. little had changed since WWII human wave, sad to say. My dad served in the soviet navy and although was never in the US navy he worked with it for various (buisiness mostly) and always said the US navy was far more disciplined and professional.
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AchtungLagg    Soviet training   4/19/2004 7:18:42 PM
Another interesting story. My family lived on the border between ukraine and hungary(we were jews) and they had a soviet artillery specialist friend who was sent to train the egyptians. When he came back, he told my worried grandparents "Guys, you have NOTHING to worry about" Aparently the egyptian conscripts were very poorly skilled, by soviet standards.
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swhitebull    RE:soviet paras   4/19/2004 7:23:09 PM
..My dad served in the soviet navy ... From my book on Russian Naval Slang: Sui hui cha! and Schtoy ya delal? nasral vborscht iley veshchi? swhitebull ||Grin||
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