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Subject: Status of Indian Jews in Israel?
capitalist72    3/5/2004 9:28:35 PM
India has had one of the oldest Jewish populations in the world. There are some very old synagogues in Mumbai. Though Indian Jews are one of the few Jewish populations around the world that have remained free from persecution throughout history, their population has been quickly declining due to migration to Israel for economic reasons, and perhaps spiritual ones too.

I'm curious as to how they have placed themselves in Israel. Are they a well integrated part of society? Wealthy or middle class? Is there a lot of intermarriage between them and other Jewish people, or not? Do they mostly live in any particular area of the country? What are their feelings towards their country of origin? Etc...

Any information from Israelis on this board would be welcome.
 
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Final Historian    RE:Status of Indian Jews in Israel?   3/5/2004 9:37:31 PM
I didn't even know there were Indian Jews! I would like to know more myself, just because it never struck me as possible.
 
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aceofw    RE:Status of Indian Jews in Israel?   3/6/2004 4:30:55 AM
Can't say for sure, but I belive they integrated quite well, a friend of mine for example, is a civics teacher
 
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capitalist72    RE:Status of Indian Jews in Israel?   3/6/2004 11:36:27 AM
Thanks, Ace. FH - it is very interesting, isn't it? There are some really fascinating minorities in India apart from the Jews as well. There are some really old Christian immigrants - from a pre-colonial and pre-Islamic era. The Zorastrians who fled the Islamic invasion of Iran are also a conspicuously successful minority in India known as "Parsis."
 
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Condor Legion    RE:Status of Indian Jews in Israel?   3/6/2004 11:48:41 PM
Indeed. India has often been refered to as the first melting pot of humanity. WE'RE ALL A BUNCH OF MUTTS, CL.
 
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Shirrush    RE:Indian Jews in Israel: the movie!   3/20/2004 6:47:49 AM
Thank you capitalist72 for paying attention to Israel multitribal mosaic. The Hodim, as they're called here, are a small, patchily distributed tribe of no more than a few thousands, and they seem to have managed to integrate well into Israel's general society, although this didn't go without difficulties. The Hodim are perceived as conservative and rather religious, and intermarry somewhat less than other communities. They are pretty inconspicuous, except for the old ladies wearing their saris on summer days. They used to be jokes about them, that would surprise any Indian that knows how many career officers of the Indian armed forces came from their midst: in Israel, this community was stigmatized for being lousy soldiers, and this is about as "true" as the Iranian Jews being tightfisted, the Kurds and the Germans, thick and kind of slow, the Romanians thieves, the Georgians squareheaded, and the Moroccans hotheaded. "Indiani baShemesh" that loosely tranlates as "Injun under the Sun" is an excellent, gripping small-budget movie that was made in 1981 by Uri Barabash about a proud but destitute farming community of Cochin Jews facing injustice and discrimination in the Judean hills near Jerusalem. Doron Nesher was in the lead role and Moshe Ivgui and Hannah Laszlo were there too. It's due to be screened next Sunday (21/03) at 1900 at the Tel-Aviv Cinematheque, and followed by a debate on, well, "oriental insubordination" Just in case someone would be interested, I myself hope I can make it as it's a great movie.
 
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capitalist72    RE:Status of Indian Jews in Israel?   3/23/2004 12:24:47 AM
Shirrush: thanks for your informative post. Interesting that some of the ladies still wear saris. I am very interested to see the movie you mention if it has English sub-titles. Since I'm in Canada, I might check with some local groups here. Regarding the fighting capability - it is true that many Indian Jews have served with distinction in the Indian armed forces. Unfortunately, the mentality is still there in India of "martial races" which makes a Sikh, Rajput, etc.. considered as a more capable soldier than a "non-martial" race. It makes a difference in who applies for military jobs in India, but I doubt it makes a difference in actual performance.
 
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SGTObvious    Strangely enough, Cap72, martial races have some reality.   3/23/2004 7:37:57 AM
Statistically, someone from a martial race background will be a better soldier. Soldiering is 90% mental. If you Beleive you are the better soldier, you have an edge. If you are motivated by pride, and you think failure will let down your proud Sikh family, you have an edge. It's all in the mind, but in the end, that's where everything is. .
 
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Shirrush    RE:Status of Indian Jews in Israel?   3/23/2004 10:00:49 AM
Well, let me tell you, I'm not pleased at all. I just rode into Tel-Aviv in a hot wind that seemed to blow straight out of the Sindh, in an attempt to find and purchase a video copy of this Uri Barabash movie, and the best record shop in the whole country just can't find it! This is why I forgot to address the more relevant questions in your first post. It is true that the Indian Jews never experienced the sort of persecution their Babylonian ancestors had to put up with. Most of Indian-born Israelis, however, came to Israel for a better life, and they often mention how tough it was in the old country, economically speaking. Apart from their generally darker complexion that does not mean much in a largely colour-blind society, nowaday's "Hodim" are mostly characterized, it seems, by their family names ending in "kar". When they first immigrated to Israel, the Cochin Jews were settled in Dimona, in the Negev desert, and in Lod, where the airport is, and these towns still retain a somewhat-Indian flavor today. I think most of them still cherish their country of origin, and many are keen to renew ties and do business with India, sometimes with great success. I know for sure that some of the newly-arrived Hodim still play cricket, a true mistery none of the native Israelis nor yours truly can ever understand. What I do deplore, however, is the quick disappearance of the unique Jewish community of India, and I worry about not being able to find any kinsmen once I at last get around to visit your fascinating country.
 
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capitalist72    RE:Status of Indian Jews in Israel?   3/25/2004 8:02:01 AM
Sarge - you are probably correct about martial races....Gurkhas for example, are always a highly decorated regiment in the Indian army. I was probably trying to gloss over the issue in deference to my own mongrel heritage..LOL. Shirrush - I was recently speaking with a gentleman who is half Indian (Goan Catholic) and half Polish Jew. Anyway, he has travelled to India and visited with the remaining Jewish community in Mumbai. He informs me that there are 2 Jewish communities in India: Bagdadi Jews, who are primarily in Mumbai, and Cochin Jews from Kerala. Economic opportunities in India were extremely limited before the process of liberalisation began, and especially so in Kerala, which is a physically beautiful, but communist state. As a result of the lack of opportunity, many Keralites work under slavish conditions in the Gulf states, or migrate and work in other parts of India - the Jewish ones would obviously exercise the Israeli option they have.
 
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Shirrush    RE: yodha    4/13/2004 12:21:44 PM
Up, Yodha, up! That is the way Israel looks at India. Israel is a small country, and it would be an understatement to say it is not especially endowed with a strong cultural identity, in spite of all the self-serving judeocentric blabber that can be heard in these parts. As such, we primitive Israelis have a lot to learn from the Indians, and things are indeed moving in the right direction even though, on the surface, it seems that most Israelis going to India these days are young people just released from their compulsory military service. Lots of them just wash away their three years of "low intensity warfare" with drugs, and come home in need of psychiatric treatment and without having learnt anything. In spite of all this, some of them will ultimately find their way to some of the better Indian universities, and come back home with PhD's to make the rest of us proud.
 
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bsl    RE: yodha    4/16/2004 7:09:00 PM
"... they know that no one will target them. ..." Because the ones who would are too busy blowing up the Indian parliament?
 
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LogicRules    India and Judaism   4/16/2004 8:54:15 PM
You'll actually find that the Jewish population in India is pretty well spread out-its main centers are the ones mentioned already, true, but you can find clusters in most states and especially recently in Delhi and Hyderabad... I can't believe that after immigrating to Isreal they forgot Cricket...comon folks... Well, at least the new ones rememeber... The fact that they are infamous for their military record is odd-some of the Jewish families there are almost wholely military-and damn proud of it... How aretheir economic and scientific contributions? In India, the minorities, especially the Jews and the Parsis, have made the greatest contributions to India's Hi-tech industry...
 
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Shirrush    RE:India and Judaism   4/17/2004 8:41:23 PM
The Indian immigrants' bad reputation in the Israeli army has no factual basis whatsoever and has been largely forgotten since the sixties. Some of the Indian boys probably happened to be smaller and skinnier than the big Russian jlobs and the stocky Kurdish lads they were drafted with... In any case, I guess that most of the really military families stayed in India and had no reason to emigrate. I ever came across only one such family, the father had retired from the Indian Air Force prior to emigrating to a town right next to a large IAF base (couldn't live without the noise...), and the son was serving with me in our reserve tank unit. I do remember him as quite an eager, and able fighter. In Israel, any newcomer group has to be picked on, somehow. The very basis of Israeli humor is poking fun, in a very politically uncorrect manner, at the various tribes composing the population, and as such the Indians got away cheap and light, very unlike the Rumanians, the Poles, the Moroccans and the Persians! As to the Indian Jews' contributions in Israeli culture and society, there are a few celebs, a soccer star, a fashion leader, many successful businesspeople, in short, nothing out of the ordinary: in Israel, they're not a minority, just regular Jewish people with "kar" names and a rather interesting cuisine.
 
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