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Subject: The Fatal Fantasy
SYSOP    12/29/2012 5:12:01 AM
 
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bikebrains    Snob Appeal   12/29/2012 11:45:47 AM

“While Shia Iraqis feel a religious kinship with their fellow Iranian Shia, the ethnic divide (the Shia majority in Iraq is Arab while the Iranians are Indo-European, and never left any Arab forget it).” To elaborate, the CIA World Fact Book says that Iraq is Arab 75%-80% and Iran is Persian 61%. "Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabic belongs to the Semitic language family. Semitic languages belong to the South Central group of the Hamito-Semitic family which is also known as Afroasiatic (alternatively Afro-Asiatic). Persian (local name: f&>57;rsi ) is an Iranian language within the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European languages. So, bottom line, Arabic and Persian come from different language “trees” which is as big a difference as you can get.


 
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bikebrains    print error    12/29/2012 11:50:03 AM
The local name for Persian is Farsi.
 
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W8ng4KngGss    Excellent Article!   12/29/2012 2:28:23 PM
Of all the years I have been following the struggle in the ME, primarily to try and understand it for myself, I have to say this article provides an eloquent summary of the Shia-Sunni conflict and why this conflict will never end. It is utterly amazing to me that the war between Sunni and (dare I say) the rest of the planet, is the very issue that stands in such solid opposition to the ideals and goals of the Sunni sect and yet is so inconceivable to the individual Sunni that this could possibly be true.
 
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Chris       12/30/2012 12:06:29 PM
And while the USA invaded Iraq, with its executive branch claiming how wonderful everything would be by doing so, the USA: exposed the limits of its power for all to see; spent a huge of money we didn't have on what became the largest diplomatic and national security disaster in US history; left behind a military at its lowest state of readiness since Viet Nam; and to top it all off - China (in who's debt we are in as a result of all this) got all of the major oil deals.
Small wonder the National Intelligence Estimate(s) considered the entire bumbling enterprise a massive victory for Al Qaida, and those who wish the US ill.
 
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trenchsol       12/31/2012 2:12:37 AM
I suppose Iraq war was not a pleasant experience, but  Gulf War left the job unfinished. Hostilities never ceased. I am not sure that US could afford themselves to just walk away from it.
 
Today, it is pretty obvious that initial assumption considering Shia population as friendly and Sunni as hostile was wrong. But, at that time it might have appeared as logical one.
 
DG
 
 
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CJH       12/31/2012 3:32:10 PM
It is easy to forget 9/11. And it is easy to forget that going into Iraq was an excellent way to keep Al Qaeda's attention away from the domestic US. Fighting extremists in Iraq sure beat creating a Festung Amerika here.
 
I think we did very well considering that what we did accomplish would probably have been considered all but impossible in the nineties.
 
I know it is a popular sport now to second guess Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld but I don't believe anyone else could have pulled off even what went right. I don't know of any US war of which it could be said in hindsight that it couldn't have been done with less expense in blood and less expense in treasure.
 
As for spending money we don't have, that applies more to Obama's "stimulus" since Iraq was at least partially successful and Obama's stimulus had nothing at all good to show for all the debt it saddled us with.
 
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trenchsol       1/1/2013 4:42:04 PM
I am not an American, but I think that Iraq war was a success. It is quite obvious that Saudi Arabia , Kuwait and some other countries are important, and they were threatened by former Iraqi regime. Saddam Hussein grabbed power in 1979. In 1980 started a war with Iran. As soon as that war ended, started another one with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. It is reasonable to assume that the third war would have been started as soon as foreign troops would have left the region.
 
Current Iraqi regime is not the greatest of them all, but it is, probably,  the best of all existing political options in Iraq today. It is not a threat to the neighbors, there is a degree of democracy and freedom, too. Compare it to what is going on in Egypt, if you would.
 
DG
 
 
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cwDeici       1/3/2013 2:02:35 PM
Mhmmm, it IS much better than the alternative. 9% economic growth says it all.
 
Still, if the Americans had backed up Allawi so Maliki didn't cheat him out of Iraqiya's part of the power things would be far better now. Sunni Arab politicians with terrorist connections aside they were the most tolerant party.
 
And SP... it's extremely disappointing and disheartening to see you label all Sunni Arab politicians in Iraq as connected to terrorists. That is simply propaganda from Maliki's slowly tightening police state.
 
Did SP even pay a wink of notice on the day the Americans left, that very night tanks and troops were sent to arrest Iraqiya members. Maliki's even messing with the courts these days.
 
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cwDeici       1/3/2013 2:03:36 PM


Mhmmm, it IS much better than the alternative. 9% economic growth says it all.

 

Still, if the Americans had backed up Allawi so Maliki didn't cheat him out of Iraqiya's part of the power things would be far better now. Sunni Arab politicians with terrorist connections aside they were the most tolerant party.

 

And SP... it's extremely disappointing and disheartening to see you label all Sunni Arab politicians in Iraq as connected to terrorists. That is simply propaganda from Maliki's slowly tightening police state.

 

Did SP even pay a wink of notice on the day the Americans left, that very night tanks and troops were sent to arrest Iraqiya members. Maliki's even messing with the courts these days.

that is, he is messing with the courts that sided with him over coalition's being able to win the elections. They were independent back then, but now...? That isn't enough anymore. Now they must do his bidding.

 
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cwDeici       1/3/2013 2:07:20 PM
Legally I think the courts made the right decision, though there's grounds to disagree, but even back then I knew that politically it was the wrong decision.
 
It's got a long ways to go before reaching Saddam's level, but Iraqi isn't much of a democracy these days at all and is getting worse. It won't get as bad as Saddam though I'm very sure of it, and even if it does the number who are persecuted are less. And the economy is growing strongly, which is perhaps the most important of all for human happiness (up to a point).
 
Aaaanyway, yeah, Iraq is much better off thanks to Gulf War II, but it could be much better if more planning had been made both before and after the invasion.
 
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