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Subject: After the Surge - It Wasn't Supposed to Work
swhitebull    9/8/2007 12:05:42 AM
link Thoughtful piece from - appropriately named - the American Thinker swhitebull
 
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Plutarch       10/5/2007 5:46:13 PM








Add to that the fact that attacks are up 30% in Afghanistan and Karzai wants to cut a deal with the Taliban.  Could Iraq have been a diversion all along for al Qaeda, with their eye on the real prize in Pakistan?  Send in your undesierables (Zarqwai) and second-stringers to cause mayhem and keep the Americans busy in Iraq and re-build your strength in your real power base in Pakistan/Afghanistan. Just a theory, I'm sure bin Laden wants American troops driven from Iraq, but I'm also sure he probably didn't shed any tears at the passing of Saddam, and al Qaeda needed the respite Bush gave them, to rebuild their capabilities.





 





Yes, I'm sure *that's* it:  Al Qaeda has been playing us for suckers in Iraq for the last four years, and now they've revealed their true objective:  Pakistan!  Soon it will fall into their hands like a ripe pomegranate!  Ohhh, those insidious b@stards!





 





Keep flopping around like a crappie out of water, looking desparately for every conceivable cloud to cover up any glimpse of a silver lining.





 





You are sooo boring.





 





 





You don't have to read my posts DJ if you don't like them, let alone respond to them.  I'm just arguing a theory; if al Qaeda were truly hurt and badly losing in Iraq and that is the central front in the GWOT (to them) then why is bin Laden arguing for the overthrow of Musharaf and wasting valued suicide bombers on the Pakistani Army when they should be sent to Iraq? 

The Pakistani Army wasn't bothering AQ and its affiliates in Waziristan, it was the tribes who broke the ceasefire, and urged on by bin Laden.  You could have argued that AQI has been beaten so badly in Iraq that even bin Laden thinks it is a lost cause, and figures his troops can't stand up to American forces and considers Pakistani troops a softer target.  That's a legitimate argument and one you could have argued; instead you chose to insult me, in a typical knee-jerk reaction...now who's boring?




 

It's still you.  I doubt anyone buys the "I'm just arguing a theory" line; I certainly don't.  You constantly, prolifically, vociferously argue a theory, any theory, every theory that you can generate as long as it is negative toward current American GWOT-related activities--whether in Iraq or elsewhere.  The bias is unmistakable.  I wonder if you let it color your professional analysis at work as much as you do your recreational analysis here on SP?


 

Hooray the Surge is working!!!! Excellent work by our Commander-in-Chief. I heart Bush!!!  Check out these cool links guys!!!

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03...

 

http://www.townhall.com/column...

 




Robert Kagan Rules!!

The 'Surge' Is Succeeding

By Robert Kagan
Sunday, March 11, 2007; B07

A front-page story... in The Post last week suggested that the Bush administration has no backup plan in case the surge in Iraq doesn't work. I wonder if The Post and other newspapers have a backup plan in case it does.

Leading journalists have been reporting for some time that the war was hopeless, a fiasco that could not be salvaged by more troops and a new counterinsurgency strategy. The conventional wisdom in December held that sending more troops was politically impossible after the antiwar ten

 
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Plutarch       10/5/2007 5:59:35 PM

"I don't deny that there is progress, obviously there is.  I just question whether it is tied to the Surge or not."


Clearly the change in tactics made a great difference.

 Indeed.

"The increase in insurgent casualties began last fall, peaked before the surge began, and has decreased slowly ever since...yes or no?  If yes, does that mean the surge was effective or not, if not then what is effective in killing insurgents (i.e. better trained Iraqi troops, reduction in corruption, the Sunni Awakening, AQI lost their funding, etc.)."


It's nice to pin these events on one thing but the reality is it's a combination of things.  Part success by us, part miscalculation and failure by the Insurgents.

 Good, that we can capitalize on their mistakes, they have had some of the upper hand for awhile.

"If no does that mean the Surge is effective and if so then why is not more pressure brought on Iraqi politicians to craft compromises before the troop reduction begins"


Don't jump ahead of the curve.  These questions are being proposed and we should see some reaction/results.

Okay I'll wait and see.

"why isn't Baghdad more secure"


Why isn't Detroit more secure?  It takes time for the other elements involved to work things out - both legal and otherwise.  Do not be fooled into thinking that all the violence reported is "insurgent" as compared to the classic corruption and criminal elements. 

Well let's just get rid of the insurgent violence first and make Baghdad at least as livable as Detroit

"why can't refugees and IDPs return to their homes, etc."


Timing is everything and information is key.  The timing is moving closer and the information has been playing against the bad guys.  Let's keep the ball rolling in that direction.
 
Yes.

"Can the Shiaization of Baghdad be halted or reversed"


WHY?  The Sunni were a minority before this - why give them a larger role than they deserve?  It is difficult to hold down 80% of your population unless you have a brutal government.  You want the Sunni's back?

 Well I was referring to the ethnic cleansing, Baghdad went from being 65% Sunni to 75% Shiite.  Or maybe that's not a bad thing?  I don't know.

"can Sadr dismantle his militias, etc."


Will the Iranians let him is a better question.

 Well we need to put the screws to Iran pretty hard now.

"These are the questions we should be asking; yes it is well and good that casualties are down, but now political progress has to be made or all the effort will be wasted."


Political progress is made after progress in the battle front.  The lessons of similar nations in historical context should indicate that they need to pick up the security first then move toward political issues.


"Do you understand my point, you don't have to agree with me, but this isn't about scoring political points."


Like the others here - I often question that.

What...my posts?  I am just being critical is all, no need to post good news when 10 other posters post the same news, or agree with it.  I go on DU and post good news about Iraq; I am a contrarian.

"The post about Pakistan was an honest question, not a diversion.  If al Qaeda claims that Iraq is central to its war against the US/West, then why is it involved now in an insurgency in Pakistan; wouldn't those troops be better served in Iraq, especially if they are losing?"


NOT related at all.  The fight in Pakistan has been ongoing before Iraq and will most likely be going after we have left.  The ISI and Paki radicals have always had a grudge against Musharraf.  They have tried - what 8 times in the past year to kill him?&nbs
 
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swhitebull    About that Mookie Sadie Guy   10/6/2007 5:40:31 PM

Sadr Capitulates?...

Moqtada al-Sadr has signed an agreement with his Shi'ite rivals in southern Iraq to end all hostilities... between them. The Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, which recently signed a peace agreement with the central government and the Kurds, has now managed to put Sadr into its coalition, ending years of conflict between the Mahdi Army and the Badr Brigades:

Two of Iraq's most influential Shia leaders have signed a deal to try to end violence between their groups.

Radical cleric Moqtada Sadr and Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, head of the Supreme Islamic Council of Iraq, have been locked in a bitter dispute for months.

The leaders have agreed to try to end further bloodshed, foster a spirit of good will and form joint committees throughout the country.

 

The SIIC stated that the various factions of Iraq had to find ways to come together to "enhance and preserve Iraqi unity." Sadr's spokesman said that the pact would become a "commitment of honor." Both sides want to find ways to end the squabbling that has existed between the groups since liberation, but which have recently created a rising amount of violence.

Sadr appears to have capitulated to the SIIC in this instance. Over the summer, his Mahdi Army started a gunfight with the Badr Brigades during a Shi'ite holiday and pilgrimage, killing dozens. Shortly afterwards, Hakim outmaneuvered Sadr with an alliance between the SIIC, Nouri al-Maliki, and the Kurds. The alliance strengthened Maliki after Sadr withdrew his deputies from Maliki's ruling coalition, leaving Sadr more isolated than ever before, even among Shi'ites.

Sadr is a survivor, as we have learned over the last four years. He knows when to hold 'em, and he knows when to fold 'em. It looks like he's made another pragmatic calculation, but even Sadr can't hide the fact that he's taking his faction ever backwards. At one time, he played kingmaker to Maliki. Now he has to fight for scraps from Hakim's table and only has indirect influence over the government. Surviving may be a form of success, but Sadr could have played his hand so much more effectively -- and it won't be long before his underlings start to realize it, if they haven't already.

 
swhitebull
 
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swhitebull    And from the CounterTerrorism Blog   10/6/2007 5:57:28 PM
And from the Counterterrorismblog.com:
 
 
www.counterterrorismblog.org/2007/10/the_sunni_insurgency_has_becom.php
 
 
 
swhitebull
 
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swhitebull    Howard Kurtz of CNN Exposes Media Bias   10/7/2007 6:45:32 PM
www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/10/07/journalists-tell-howard-kurtz-why-good-news-iraq-shouldn-t-get-report
 
 
swhitebull
 
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swhitebull    The Turning of the Shi'ites   10/12/2007 4:44:15 PM
from captainsquartersblog.com:

The Shi'ite Turn

One of the big success stories of the surge came from the disaffection between the Sunnis in western Iraq and the foreign terrorists of al-Qaeda in Iraq. The Anbar Awakening started as a tribal alliance against AQI and blossomed into a widespread movement to bring the Sunnis stability and engagement with the rest of the nation. Now it looks like the Shi'ites have tired of their sectarian milit... headed by the onetime kingmaker, Moqtada al-Sadr:

In a number of Shiite neighborhoods across Baghdad, residents are beginning to turn away from the Mahdi Army, the Shiite militia they once saw as their only protector against Sunni militants. Now they resent it as a band of street thugs without ideology.

The hardening Shiite feeling in Baghdad opens an opportunity for the American military, which has long struggled against the Mahdi Army, as American commanders rely increasingly on tribes and local leaders in their prosecution of the war.

The sectarian landscape has shifted, with Sunni extremists largely defeated in many Shiite neighborhoods, and the war in those places has sunk into a criminality that is often blind to sect.

In interviews, 10 Shiites from four neighborhoods in eastern and western Baghdad described a pattern in which militia members, looking for new sources of income, turned on Shiites.

The split was entirely predictable. The militias have always run their neighborhoods like Mafioso thugs, extorting money from their own people to maintain their own power. The Shi'ites in these areas put up with it just as long as they saw the Sunni insurgents and AQI terrorists as a larger threat.

The surge changed that calculation. When the US and Iraqi forces started pushing back hard against AQI, the Sunni insurgents changed sides and fought against the foreigners as well. That reduced the pressure on the Shi'ite areas and stripped the Mahdis of their sheen as sectarian defenders. As the Shi'ite residents began to reject the gangster tactics of the Mahdis in greater numbers, the gangsters themselves resorted to typical gangster tactics, increasing in severity, up to murder of their own brethren.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Shi'ites in Iraq have learned this lesson again, and they have given the rational response to it. Their rejection of Sadr's militias will extend to Sadr himself, further isolating him politically and eroding his corrosive power on Iraqi politics. It positions the Shi'ites to finally start reaching out to the Sunnis who have started their own political march to the middle.

It's another example of good news coming out of Iraq. It's such an obvious trend that even the New York Times can't avoid it.
 
 
swhitebull
 
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swhitebull    Hillary (and other libs) Lies - US troops DONT Die   10/14/2007 12:36:16 PM
from CaptainsQuartersBlog.com:
 
 

WaPo: Petraeus Was Right

The Washington Post's editorial board noticed something over the last few weeks that many of us have pointed out all along. They discover that General David Petraeus told the truth about the improving situation in Iraq. They have also found out that hardly any news agency seems interested in reporting it:

NEWS COVERAGE and debate about Iraq during the past couple of weeks have centered on the alleged abuses of private security firms like Blackwater USA. Getting such firms into a legal regime is vital, as we've said. But meanwhile, some seemingly important facts about the main subject of discussion last month -- whether there has been a decrease in violence in Iraq -- have gotten relatively little attention. A congressional study and several news stories in September questioned reports by the U.S. military that casualties were down. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), challenging the testimony of Gen. David H. Petraeus, asserted that "civilian deaths have risen" during this year's surge of American forces.

A month later, there isn't much room for such debate, at least about the latest figures. In September, Iraqi civilian deaths were down 52 percent from August and 77 percent from September 2006, according to the Web site icasualties.org. The Iraqi Health Ministry and the Associated Press reported similar results. U.S. soldiers killed in action numbered 43 -- down 43 percent from August and 64 percent from May, which had the highest monthly figure so far this year. The American combat death total was the lowest since July 2006 and was one of the five lowest monthly counts since the insurgency in Iraq took off in April 2004. ...

This doesn't necessarily mean the war is being won. U.S. military commanders have said that no reduction in violence will be sustainable unless Iraqis reach political solutions -- and there has been little progress on that front. Nevertheless, it's looking more and more as though those in and outside of Congress who last month were assailing Gen. Petraeus's credibility and insisting that there was no letup in Iraq's bloodshed were -- to put it simply -- wrong.

Let's put it a little more simply: they lied. Being "wrong" would have meant them saying, "General Petraeus, your numbers appear to be incorrect," or alternately, "We don't believe these trends will last." That's not what Petraeus heard. He heard a Senator -- someone vying to become Petraeus' Commander in Chief -- tell him that his testimony required a "willing suspension of disbelief". MoveOn greeted Petraeus' testimony with a full-page ad declaring him a potential traitor to his country.

All of that was very wrong on many levels, but his critics were much more than just incorrect. They lied about Petraeus, and the Washington Post lets them off far too easily.

They appear to do the same with their colleagues in the media. The Post notes the lack of "attention" given to the improving numbers, but never asks why this story hasn't gotten more press. The same agencies that reserve room on the front page for endless Blackwater stories somehow can't find room to report on military progress in Iraq -- and political progress as well. Somehow the story becomes much less interesting to editors when the American military reverses violent trends, starts saving lives, and starts beating terrorists.

That's not just a lack of attention, as in someone simply neglecting a wire service output. Those are deliberate editorial decisions to ignore or deprioritize news that shows the progress of Petraeus and the surge. Referring to these deliberate decisions as a "lack of attention" is equivalent to calling Petraeus' critics "wrong" rather than "exposed for what they are".
 
 
 
swhitebull
 
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swhitebull    The Iraqi Laffer Curve   10/15/2007 1:04:10 PM
The Laffer Curve presumes that lowering tax rates increases tax revenues, and has been conclusively shown to have been proved correct. The top 5% of Americans pay 40% of all taxes, and the top 10% pay close to 65%. How does this apply to Iraq?
 
 
The "conventional" wisdom has been - and some have maintained on these very boards - that al-Qaeda in Iraq comprises only 10% of the estimated number of insurgents fighting to overthrow the central government, run drugs, terrorize civilians, etc etc etc. However, I have YET to see from those same sources the breakdown of such attacks by source. Who is doing most of the attacks?
 
 
Well, there seems to be a direct correlation between the rollup of those 10%-ers, and the incredible reduction in attacks and in declining civilian casualties. Kinda like the Laffer curve gone Chaotic. Those 10%-ers were accounting for the grand bulk of the attacks, and now that they are on the run, are beginning to be marginalized, and the Iraqus given breathing space to peaceably sort out their differences.
 
 
From CaptainsQuartersBlog.com:
 
 

AQI On The Run, Not Vanquished...

In a rare case where all sides appear to be displaying some sense, the military has not said that al-Qaeda in Iraq has been defeated, and a media outlet isn't hiding the fact that AQI has suffered a rout. The Washington Post... reports on the delicate matter of what to make of the tremendous progress the US has made against the terrorists in western Iraq, and the likelihood that a premature declaration of victory would get used as a propaganda stunt by our enemies:

The U.S. military believes it has dealt devastating and perhaps irreversible blows to al-Qaeda in Iraq in recent months, leading some generals to advocate a declaration of victory over the group, which the Bush administration has long described as the most lethal U.S. adversary in Iraq.

But as the White House and its military commanders plan the next phase of the war, other officials have cautioned against taking what they see as a premature step that could create strategic and political difficulties for the United States. Such a declaration could fuel criticism that the Iraq conflict has become a civil war in which U.S. combat forces should not be involved. At the same time, the intelligence community, and some in the military itself, worry about underestimating an enemy that has shown great resilience in the past.

"I think it would be premature at this point," a senior intelligence official said of a victory declaration over AQI, as the group is known. Despite recent U.S. gains, he said, AQI retains "the ability for surprise and for catastrophic attacks." Earlier periods of optimism, such as immediately following the June 2006 death of AQI founder Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in a U.S. air raid, not only proved unfounded but were followed by expanded operations by the militant organization.

There is widespread agreement that AQI has suffered major blows over the past three months. Among the indicators cited is a sharp drop in suicide bombings, the group's signature attack, from more than 60 in January to around 30 a month since July. Captures and interrogations of AQI leaders over the summer had what a senior military intelligence official called a "cascade effect," leading to other killings and captures. The flow of foreign fighters through Syria into Iraq has also diminished, although officials are unsure of the reason and are concerned that the broader al-Qaeda network may be diverting new recruits to Afghanistan and elsewhere.

 

One point the Bush administration has made over and over again has been proven, at least. The US forces had insisted for the past two years that AQI presented the deadliest challenge in Iraq. Critics claimed that the Pentagon and the administration were lying, and that the AQ forces only represented 10% of all insurgents in Iraq. Yet now, with AQI dispersed, demoralized, and mostly defeated, the plunge in casualties has been far greater than the 10% number critics and skeptics tossed around so casually as late as this summer.

Momentum clearly shifted to our side in Iraq since the surge. It accomplished exactly what it intended -- the elimination of destabilizing violence, especially in western Iraq and the Baghdad environs. And peace has become a habit that the Iraqis have enjoyed. They have reached out and built ground-up coalitions, even reaching across sectarian lines, in order to keep the progress going forward towards stability.

The Mal

 
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SGTObvious       10/15/2007 1:18:22 PM
Only one thing makes me a bit pessimistic about the outcome of the surge- not to say that I am 100% pessimistic, but I feel strongly that there are issues not being addressed that could turn the tide back the other way.
 
We are in an ideological war, not against a nation-state as much as we are an "ism".  But that "ism" has roots, and those roots are not where we are fighting or intend to fight.
 
In 1941 it was recognized that the war would end in Berlin and Tokyo.  Everything else was just a stepping stone. 
 
We started Iraq largely on the premise, by way of Condi Rice and others, that a democratic, westernized, secularized Iraq was a stepping stone on the way to the eventual destruction of the socio-political paradigm which generated 911, Al Queda, Khomeini, the Taliban, Saddam, MILF, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, etc.
 
I hope we haven't forgotten this.  I hope that any success in Iraq does not lead to a sense of "whew I'm glad that's over, let's go back to bed now."
 
SGTObvious
 
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SGTObvious       10/15/2007 2:50:49 PM
Only one thing makes me a bit pessimistic about the outcome of the surge- not to say that I am 100% pessimistic, but I feel strongly that there are issues not being addressed that could turn the tide back the other way.
 
We are in an ideological war, not against a nation-state as much as we are an "ism".  But that "ism" has roots, and those roots are not where we are fighting or intend to fight.
 
In 1941 it was recognized that the war would end in Berlin and Tokyo.  Everything else was just a stepping stone. 
 
We started Iraq largely on the premise, by way of Condi Rice and others, that a democratic, westernized, secularized Iraq was a stepping stone on the way to the eventual destruction of the socio-political paradigm which generated 911, Al Queda, Khomeini, the Taliban, Saddam, MILF, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, etc.
 
I hope we haven't forgotten this.  I hope that any success in Iraq does not lead to a sense of "whew I'm glad that's over, let's go back to bed now."
 
SGTObvious
 
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