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Subject: That Phrase, Support the War
SGTObvious    3/27/2007 4:06:34 PM
It's not exactly a realistic depiction of positions. Some people who say they are "against the war" want US troops removed, although they know this could easily intensify the war. That's not "against the war", that's "against our participation in it." Others who support our participation do so not because they want "a war" but because they know that there are positive feedbacks created by our participation. Very few of the "Against the war" types, well, none, actually, promote any kind of strategy that would actually end the war. It's like describing yourself as "against poverty" when your actions are only self interested. And no one "pro-war" would be pro-war in the absence of any positive result. All the pro-war positions are actually positions in favor of positive outcomes we can achieve. Or, equally important: negative outcomes we might prevent. Note well here: At this stage in the game, denying a positive result to Al-Queda is in fact a positive result for us. It's all gone zero-sum; like a balance scale, anything added to one is taken away from another. Anti-war folks beware: there is not a single American soldier in Darfur. American casualties there have been zero. And we have killed no enemy there. Therefor, you have succeeded in preventing war there, right? Good work! So let's go for some honesty here. There's only one actual anti-war movement, which has people going door to door in the nastiest areas trying to get the locals not to fight. Those anti-war activists wear camoflauge. It's a mixed up muddled up shook up world. Bush is not the only one who must beware of Unintended Consequences. I think it's time the "anti-American participation in the Iraqi war" movement gave us some answers to questions: 1) How would each of the principal parties in Iraq react in the short term? 2) How would Iraqis who were supporting Americans or working for Americans be perceived and treated in the aftermath? 3) How would that influence people in the future who might be asked to support an American military operation? 4) How would this be viewed and exploited by theocratically leaning radicals such as Al Queda and Iran? 5) What is their historical, traditional reaction to a perception of weakness in an enemy? 6) Would Al Queda and associated groups promote this as a "defeat" for America? And how would they exploit that? 7) No longer forced to contest American power in Iraq, where would Al Queda focus its efforts and resources next? Would they go for easy pickings in weaker states or seek to capitalize on the moment by direct attacks on the US? 8) The worst possible case is of course this: Sunni/Shi'ia violence ramps up. Without American stability, Iran is unconstrained and openly supports their local favorites, Sadr et al. The Saudis feel obligated to do likewise in the face of shi'ia terror unleashed at Sunni civilians. With religious fundamentalists calling the shots on both sides, the Sunni/Shi'ia war devastates the region, Saudis and Iranians take pot shots at each others' economy, oil exports slow, there is a world wide recession, and as the standards of living drop around the world, infant mortality climbs, death rates soar, we get more poverty, and all the death and misery associated with poverty. Have you considered this? If so, is this an acceptable outcome? Or do you think that despite their behavior, Iran's leadership will prove benevolent and docile, and would have no designs on Iraq once the dreaded Americans are gone? 9) Can you honestly tell me that you have thought through the consequences with a logical, rational mindframe and still believe that the consequences of a withdrawal are less than the consequences of persevering? Or is your position motivated more by a desire to see those you despise be humbled? Let them all die, let the havoc be unleashed, so long as Bush and Cheney are held accountable? 10) So then can we be honest and go forth with an understanding that you do in fact support the war, it's just that the present war is way, way too small for your more apocalylptic tastes? SGTObvious
 
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Zerbrechen       3/27/2007 4:36:52 PM
As always, SgtO, a well thought out and insightful post.  Glad to see you back on the boards. 
 
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Plutarch       3/27/2007 5:51:37 PM

It's not exactly a realistic depiction of positions.

Some people who say they are "against the war" want US troops removed, although they know this could easily intensify the war. That's not "against the war", that's "against our participation in it." Others who support our participation do so not because they want "a war" but because they know that there are positive feedbacks created by our participation. Very few of the "Against the war" types, well, none, actually, promote any kind of strategy that would actually end the war.

It's like describing yourself as "against poverty" when your actions are only self interested.

And no one "pro-war" would be pro-war in the absence of any positive result. All the pro-war positions are actually positions in favor of positive outcomes we can achieve.

Or, equally important: negative outcomes we might prevent.

Note well here: At this stage in the game, denying a positive result to Al-Queda is in fact a positive result for us. It's all gone zero-sum; like a balance scale, anything added to one is taken away from another.

Anti-war folks beware: there is not a single American soldier in Darfur. American casualties there have been zero. And we have killed no enemy there. Therefor, you have succeeded in preventing war there, right? Good work!

So let's go for some honesty here. There's only one actual anti-war movement, which has people going door to door in the nastiest areas trying to get the locals not to fight. Those anti-war activists wear camoflauge. It's a mixed up muddled up shook up world.

Bush is not the only one who must beware of Unintended Consequences.

I think it's time the "anti-American participation in the Iraqi war" movement gave us some answers to questions:

1) How would each of the principal parties in Iraq react in the short term?

2) How would Iraqis who were supporting Americans or working for Americans be perceived and treated in the aftermath?

3) How would that influence people in the future who might be asked to support an American military operation?

4) How would this be viewed and exploited by theocratically leaning radicals such as Al Queda and Iran?

5) What is their historical, traditional reaction to a perception of weakness in an enemy?

6) Would Al Queda and associated groups promote this as a "defeat" for America? And how would they exploit that?

7) No longer forced to contest American power in Iraq, where would Al Queda focus its efforts and resources next? Would they go for easy pickings in weaker states or seek to capitalize on the moment by direct attacks on the US?

8) The worst possible case is of course this: Sunni/Shi'ia violence ramps up. Without American stability, Iran is unconstrained and openly supports their local favorites, Sadr et al. The Saudis feel obligated to do likewise in the face of shi'ia terror unleashed at Sunni civilians. With religious fundamentalists calling the shots on both sides, the Sunni/Shi'ia war devastates the region, Saudis and Iranians take pot shots at each others' economy, oil exports slow, there is a world wide recession, and as the standards of living drop around the world, infant mortality climbs, death rates soar, we get more poverty, and all the death and misery associated with poverty. Have you considered this? If so, is this an acceptable outcome? Or do you think that despite their behavior, Iran's leadership will prove benevolent and docile, and would have no designs on Iraq once the dreaded Americans are gone?

9) Can you honestly tell me that you have thought through the consequences with a logical, rational mindframe and still believe that the consequences of a withdrawal are less than the consequences of persevering? Or is your position motivated more by a desire to see those you despise be humbled? Let them all die, let the havoc be unleashed, so long as Bush and Cheney are held accountable?

10) So then can we be honest and go forth with an understanding that you do in fact support the war, it's just that the present war is way, way too small for your more apocalylptic tastes?

SGTObvious


I think it's time the "anti-American participation in the Iraqi war" movement gave us some answers to questions:

1) How would each of the principal parties in Iraq react in the short term?

The Sunni nationalists would most likely redirect their violence against the Shiites, and either force them to cut a deal allowing the Sunnis partial governance or risk becoming completely eradicated by the Shia. 

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SGTObvious       3/27/2007 6:33:50 PM

Okey dokey, we have a few actually non-rabid answers to consider!

 

1) How would each of the principal parties in Iraq react in the short term?


The Sunni nationalists would most likely redirect their violence against the Shiites, and either force them to cut a deal allowing the Sunnis partial governance or risk becoming completely eradicated by the Shia. 
I agree.  And this leads down the slippery slope you think isn't an issue.

2) How would Iraqis who were supporting Americans or working for Americans be perceived and treated in the aftermath?


Killed most likely; though this isn't a big change from what is going on now.

Killed, yes, or driven into exile, but all or most of them, not just a few, making it a big change indeed.  It would be like the Boat People all over again.

3) How would that influence people in the future who might be asked to support an American military operation?


Who was asked to support this operation?  Britain and Australia and neither country is going to de-link itself from the US.  If you are referring to native populations; there will always be people willing to collaborate with a greater power.
Natives.  But to what extent, given your answer to #2 above?   This is a major reason why Iraqis were slow to back the US- we have a track record of abandoning people when the going gets tough. 


4) How would this be viewed and exploited by theocratically leaning radicals such as Al Queda and Iran?


They already believe they've won. 
Not at all.  It they thought they won, why are they still fighting.  Amusement?   There's one you didn't think through!  (I feel cheated of serious debate!)
Iran would solidify the gains it has made in southern Iraq, and al Qaeda will remain entrenched in the Sunni areas.  This will happen no matter when the US leaves. 
50 years later, even?
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Plutarch       3/27/2007 7:14:39 PM


Okey dokey, we have a few actually non-rabid answers to consider!


 


1) How would each of the principal parties in Iraq react in the short term?


The Sunni nationalists would most likely redirect their violence against the Shiites, and either force them to cut a deal allowing the Sunnis partial governance or risk becoming completely eradicated by the Shia. 

I agree.  And this leads down the slippery slope you think isn't an issue.


2) How would Iraqis who were supporting Americans or working for Americans be perceived and treated in the aftermath?


Killed most likely; though this isn't a big change from what is going on now.


Killed, yes, or driven into exile, but all or most of them, not just a few, making it a big change indeed.  It would be like the Boat People all over again.

Not to that extent though.  How many Iraqis are actually "supporting Americans" and in what capacity? There is no cash economy in Iraq the way there was in SVN, the US is utilizing many contractors (Americans and others) and importing cheap labor from Asia (Phillipines etc.) to do most of the logistical support that used to be done by native populations as in South Vietnam.  The biggest contribution the Iraqi civilians are providing to the US mission is as translators, who are already being killed by insurgents.


3) How would that influence people in the future who might be asked to support an American military operation?


Who was asked to support this operation?  Britain and Australia and neither country is going to de-link itself from the US.  If you are referring to native populations; there will always be people willing to collaborate with a greater power.

Natives.  But to what extent, given your answer to #2 above?   This is a major reason why Iraqis were slow to back the US- we have a track record of abandoning people when the going gets tough. 

Through the lens of Vietnam again; we still have troops in Korea, Japan, Germany, the Balkans, Afghanistan, etc.  The Iraqis were slow to back the US because they didn't ask for the US help and thus questioned the American motives for the war.


4) How would this be viewed and exploited by theocratically leaning radicals such as Al Queda and Iran?


They already believe they've won. 

Not at all.  It they thought they won, why are they still fighting.  Amusement?   There's one you didn't think through!  (I feel cheated of serious debate!)
Whenever the US leaves Iraq, the contingent that is still fighting there will declare it a victory, and you can bet they will be fighting the US up until that point.
Iran would solidify the gains it has made in southern Iraq, and al Qaeda will remain entrenched in the Sunni areas.  This will happen no matter when the US leaves. 

50 years later, even?
Yes even 50 years later.
 One thing our leaving could provide is an opportunity for Sunni al Queda to fight Shiite Iran.  Two enemies killing each other and no American lives lost.

Again, the very same slippery slope you are not afraid of below
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Clausewitz    AQ and the mullahs have a common enemy!   3/29/2007 11:47:17 AM
Iran is actually supporting AQ. Even when AQ kills many iraki shiites to inflame civil war. Sectarian violence is in the mullahs interest. Not long ago Iran put some AQ operators in "house arrest". I heard that one of OBL's sons was one of them. AQ strenghtens iraks shiites identiy and gives the mullahs many sheep to protect. They will never turn on each other.
 
Someone with this amount of wishful thinking should not blame the necons.
 
Both AQ and Iran will profit from civil war.
 
Maybe Iran offer the sunnis - ergo the Saudis - to prevent genocide in Irak if the sunnis accept a nuclear armed Iran (and hinder the US to preempt that). Maybe they try to unite with southern Irak to take the huge reserves of oil down there.
 
AQ will be free to attack western allies in the broader middle east and will have a save haven in western Irak to plod attacks on the west.
 
Sadly a asymetrical war (on terror) is a long one. Democracies are not well suited for that kind of warfare. But the long term price of loosing it may be desastrous.
 
But I know  there is no chance for an open ended war or terror. Public opinion in the US will end it at after the 2008 elections. And the US and the west need mighty US-forces in working order too (both current counter-insurgency wars weaken the ability of US-forces to wage high-intensity warfare). What will happen if in Pakistan the islamofascist take control? What will happen if strikes against iranian nuke facilities will be neccessary? So let's hope the surge will work and that from 2009 on (or ealier) logistic support of the iraki army will be enough (That may even be a compromise between G.W. Bush and Congress).
 
 
 
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Plutarch       3/30/2007 3:37:35 PM

Iran is actually supporting AQ. Even when AQ kills many iraki shiites to inflame civil war. Sectarian violence is in the mullahs interest. Not long ago Iran put some AQ operators in "house arrest". I heard that one of OBL's sons was one of them. AQ strenghtens iraks shiites identiy and gives the mullahs many sheep to protect. They will never turn on each other.

 

Someone with this amount of wishful thinking should not blame the necons.

 

Both AQ and Iran will profit from civil war.

 

Maybe Iran offer the sunnis - ergo the Saudis - to prevent genocide in Irak if the sunnis accept a nuclear armed Iran (and hinder the US to preempt that). Maybe they try to unite with southern Irak to take the huge reserves of oil down there.

 

AQ will be free to attack western allies in the broader middle east and will have a save haven in western Irak to plod attacks on the west.

 

Sadly a asymetrical war (on terror) is a long one. Democracies are not well suited for that kind of warfare. But the long term price of loosing it may be desastrous.

 

But I know  there is no chance for an open ended war or terror. Public opinion in the US will end it at after the 2008 elections. And the US and the west need mighty US-forces in working order too (both current counter-insurgency wars weaken the ability of US-forces to wage high-intensity warfare). What will happen if in Pakistan the islamofascist take control? What will happen if strikes against iranian nuke facilities will be neccessary? So let's hope the surge will work and that from 2009 on (or ealier) logistic support of the iraki army will be enough (That may even be a compromise between G.W. Bush and Congress).

 

 


 
Iran is actually supporting AQ. Even when AQ kills many iraki shiites to inflame civil war. Sectarian violence is in the mullahs interest
 
Sectarian violence is in the mullahs interest as long as the US is in Iraq.  However it's difficult to imagine how Sunni Al-Qaeda, who wants to establish a caliphate, can get along with Shiite Iran, whose religion is diametrically opposed to that move.

 

But I know  there is no chance for an open ended war or terror. Public opinion in the US will end it at after the 2008 elections. And the US and the west need mighty US-forces in working order too (both current counter-insurgency wars weaken the ability of US-forces to wage high-intensity warfare). What will happen if in Pakistan the islamofascist take control? What will happen if strikes against iranian nuke facilities will be neccessary? So let's hope the surge will work and that from 2009 on (or ealier) logistic support of the iraki army will be enough (That may even be a compromise between G.W. Bush and Congress).
 
The surge has not worked in the short-term during Phase I. Levels of violence, terror attacks, civilan casualties and Iraq military casualties all rose in March over the previous month.  Phase II begins in June, perhaps with another two brigades in place we may see results.  But the plan is that by September Baghdad will be stable, and I think that is too optimisitic a goal for the "surge".

 
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WinsettZ       4/11/2007 7:48:26 PM
The post is dependent on the premise that removing troops = "intensify the war". That assumes the war in Iraq is truly part of GWOT, as if Al Qaeda had launchpads in Baghdad for the war against the infidels (their logistics base was Afghanistan/Pakistan, still Pakistan today, and their "forward bases" are always in the enemy country, Germany, America, Spain...Iraq is not a frontline position, and it isn't particularly secure so it's useless as a terror base. Never was part of the AQ, especially since Saddam wasn't in their pocket the same way the Islamists have Pervez in their pocket. The "against our participation" comment is also tied into the premise behind the validity of the Iraq war.

"And no one "pro-war" would be pro-war in the absence of any positive result. All the pro-war positions are actually positions in favor of positive outcomes we can achieve. "

Much of the argument of the anti-war people is based on the premise that our maintaining of forces in Iraq is not bringing about positive change. ATM it fails to resolve the fundamental fissioning of the Iraqi people into armed camps, and all it does is cut the number of headless bodies being found in the streets. In one way the pro-war people are measuring results in the same metrics of the Vietnam era: body counts, though we want ours low when it comes to civilians as opposed to high for Viet Cong.

"Or, equally important: negative outcomes we might prevent.

Note well here: At this stage in the game, denying a positive result to Al-Queda is in fact a positive result for us. It's all gone zero-sum; like a balance scale, anything added to one is taken away from another. "

Like the mushroom clouds? The CIA knew OBL was coming for the WTC, it's not like they wouldn't be able to be surprised if a nuke operation was in progress (they'd just simply fail to catch the guys). AQ gets a positive outcome every time they get to make a video of American vehicles blowing up.

AQ gets no negative brownie points for losing foot soldiers. We get no positive brownie points for killing little footsoldiers either (despite the "gotta kill em there before we kill em over here" stuff, which implies AQ footsoldiers coming to this country in a mass invasion a la Red Dawn, instead of sneaky hijackings of airplanes with less highjackers than can be found in a infantry platoon. AQ foot soldiers and hijackers are not interchangeable: not every footsoldier can be thrown into the tasks that AQ is expected to utilize to get us, some are just expendable shooters and killing those guys in a foreign land doesn't cut into the pool of guys they have ready to hijack airplanes.

"Anti-war folks beware: there is not a single American soldier in Darfur. American casualties there have been zero. And we have killed no enemy there. Therefor, you have succeeded in preventing war there, right? Good work! "

This is a generalization of the term "anti-war", which might be more technically correct by saying "Anti-Iraq-War". It sounds better to say "anti-War", just like the right slammed Kerry's "I voted for it (in committee) before voting against it" by simplifying it or saying it out of context to deliver the message they wanted it to deliver. It's so much easier to simply strip things of their context to belittle the speaker or the group.

"So let's go for some honesty here. There's only one actual anti-war movement, which has people going door to door in the nastiest areas trying to get the locals not to fight. Those anti-war activists wear camoflauge. It's a mixed up muddled up shook up world. "

Never seen Dems not support finishing the job in Afghanistan. And I live in a state full of 'em. Granted Afghanistan is one hell of a country to fight in as so many people have learned, but it's easier to use tanks and airstrikes in Iraq, showing blown up buildings and captured weapons as if the loss of mere foot soldiers meant anything to AQ.

"I think it's time the "anti-American participation in the Iraqi war" movement gave us some answers to questions: "


"1) How would each of the principal parties in Iraq react in the short term? "

Kurds: Consolidate against the Shias/Iran, wail on Sunnis if possible.
Sunnis: Protect what they have. NYT reported on possible oil deposits in western provinces, if true may allow for a somewhat viable state. Protect selves against Kurds/Shia, will have more problems with Shias.
Shia: Turn to Iran with open arms, thank America for bringing democracy and allowing "closer ties with our neighbors". GOP is satisfied that "democracy is flourishing", genocide begins.

2) How would Iraqis who were supporting Americans or working for Americans be perceived and treated in the aftermath?

If a large proportion of them hate America (as the left and media allege), then they will get shot. Especially since Jordan/Syria cannot take more refugees a
 
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SGTObvious       4/13/2007 3:16:31 PM

The post is dependent on the premise that removing troops = "intensify the war". That assumes the war in Iraq is truly part of GWOT, as if Al Qaeda had launchpads in Baghdad for the war against the infidels (their logistics base was Afghanistan/Pakistan, still Pakistan today, and their "forward bases" are always in the enemy country, Germany, America, Spain...Iraq is not a frontline position,
But it is now.  AQ has deployed a lot of resources there.  There are several important reasons why which I'd go into elsewhere.    But the intensity with which AQ is struggling in Iraq is visible through an apparent paradox:  If we take it as a given that the AQ foot soldiers don't count, then we must assume AQ and its satellites have a very large recruiting pool AND inexhaustable resources.  But if that is the case, where are they?  Any armchair strategist on this board can come up with a dozen ways a small gang of terrorists could make a devastating attack in the US, and yet, as Marvin the Martian put it, no Kaboom, where's the kaboom?  This leads to several possible answers:
1)  That AQ has lots of resources, but for strategic reasons has none of them commited against the US.  I find this unbelievable, considering the amount of prestige an AQ leader would gain within jihad circles from just one moderately successful attack.  ANd on the flip side, if this IS the case it means AQ considers Iraq a vastly more important arena than the US, and by extension, so should we.
2)  That AQ has few resources and is relatively weak and overrated, capable only of harrassment and the occassional lucky massive attack.  If this is the case, then the conjecture that foot soldiers are without value is wrong- if AQ has few resources any means of wasting them should be taken advantage of.
3)  That AQ has large resources but their ability to deploy terrorists globally is limited by other factors.  The "deployable" terrorist is not like the native insurgent.  The average Abu As-Hol isn't good enough, you need stable and ruthless individuals who are so dedicated to the cause that they will not waver when things are going wrong.  Remember, these tend to be highly egocentric individuals with a strong shame/pride/humiliation drive and a bruised ego followed by a loss of discipline could easily lead to not only the failure of the mission but a major loss of operatives, safe houses, and support staff.  So while any dumb moron can be a "local" insurgent, you need a special person to be globally deployable.  These are very much worth killing. 
And there is another factor:  In Iraq, the rules are War.  In other nations, the rules are Legal.  That means different levels of information can be used and exploited.  In Iraq, if you break into a house in pursuit of a sniper and find a laptop, all the contents thereof can be exploited by the intel guys within hours, no lawyers.  Not so elsewhere. 
The "against our participation" comm
 
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Plutarch       4/13/2007 4:31:00 PM



The post is dependent on the premise that removing troops = "intensify the war". That assumes the war in Iraq is truly part of GWOT, as if Al Qaeda had launchpads in Baghdad for the war against the infidels (their logistics base was Afghanistan/Pakistan, still Pakistan today, and their "forward bases" are always in the enemy country, Germany, America, Spain...Iraq is not a frontline position,

But it is now.  AQ has deployed a lot of resources there.  There are several important reasons why which I'd go into elsewhere.    But the intensity with which AQ is struggling in Iraq is visible through an apparent paradox:  If we take it as a given that the AQ foot soldiers don't count, then we must assume AQ and its satellites have a very large recruiting pool AND inexhaustable resources.  But if that is the case, where are they?  Any armchair strategist on this board can come up with a dozen ways a small gang of terrorists could make a devastating attack in the US, and yet, as Marvin the Martian put it, no Kaboom, where's the kaboom?  This leads to several possible answers:

1)  That AQ has lots of resources, but for strategic reasons has none of them commited against the US.  I find this unbelievable, considering the amount of prestige an AQ leader would gain within jihad circles from just one moderately successful attack.  ANd on the flip side, if this IS the case it means AQ considers Iraq a vastly more important arena than the US, and by extension, so should we.

2)  That AQ has few resources and is relatively weak and overrated, capable only of harrassment and the occassional lucky massive attack.  If this is the case, then the conjecture that foot soldiers are without value is wrong- if AQ has few resources any means of wasting them should be taken advantage of.

3)  That AQ has large resources but their ability to deploy terrorists globally is limited by other factors.  The "deployable" terrorist is not like the native insurgent.  The average Abu As-Hol isn't good enough, you need stable and ruthless individuals who are so dedicated to the cause that they will not waver when things are going wrong.  Remember, these tend to be highly egocentric individuals with a strong shame/pride/h
 
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SGTObvious       4/16/2007 2:55:18 PM

They control Ramadi fairly well, and have kept US troops out of there.  Even still the presence of US troops does not mean we "control" Iraq.  Who do the people turn to as their leaders, or for protection?  In Anbar it is AQI.

No, Plutarch, they don't control Ramadi nor are they keeping US troops out.  A simple Google search will turn up videos of US troops there, and things like a Police station being built, power transmission lines and a bridge being built.  And of course the Al Ramadi hospital.  They can attack Ramadi, and cause damage and death- so can we, anywhere on the planet, if we so choose.  Control is an entirely different matter from ability to cause hurt.   Rule of thumb, if you can build a bridge on a piece of ground, you control it.
 
It appears it is not I who is getting the news askew.  In Anbar, increasingly, the people do not turn to AQ for leadership,
even the liberal end of the media is reporting the changeover.
 
SGTObvious
 
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