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Subject: Cost of the Iraq war
eu4ea    1/15/2007 11:20:55 PM
This thread is a spin-off of the "So what then?" thread right before it. We got pretty into that issue there, and taking it to a new thread seemed like the right thing to do, particularly since that one was getting unwieldy at 120+ posts. This aspect of the war has been overshadowed by the human cost aspect. Rightly so in that human costs are far more grave, but we should still look at the question of what this is costing us. The best single source for war cost data is probably the paper by economics Nobel Prize winner Joseph Stiglitz, here www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/cost_of_war_in_iraq.pdf It's estimate is between $750 billion and 1.2 trillion. One caveat regarding that paper is that it was written last year, and it's calculations anticipate a drawdown of US forces starting in 2006 and going on through 2007, when in fact the opposite has happened. As far as more recent materials, there's a spate of press articles going around, most of which are a *lot* less thorough than Stiglitz. They focus primarily on the 'headline item' that the Iraq war is going to surpass the cost of the Vietnam war (in constant dollars) early next year. Here's a random one: Alternatively, you can run your own FV calculation. Unavoidably that's rather crude, but it's useful when looking at the hypothesis that "we should stay in there as long as it takes to get the job done" - 15 years, 18 years, whatever - people have all sort of hypothesis about what that may mean. My views are that; 1- This war is *wildly* expensive; already north of $1 trillion with current commitments, and will in all probability continue to rise well past it. 2- The costs of the war are being intentionally obfuscated by the George jr Administration. Further, they are financed primarily through debt so he can still claim to be a "conservative". 3- A victory at this cost is not victory at all even if it does come, which is far from clear in this case. The way I look at it is that there are plenty of good reasons why Democracies dont have much of an appetite for long term nation-building exercises abroad, particularly if they involve years of fighting heavily entrenched foreign insurgencies. It's not just that they fail (as most do); it's also that the price tag for such adventures is so extravagantly expensive make them a very poor use of our money even in the highly unlikely scenario that we do succeed. Heart, eu4ea
 
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eu4ea       1/16/2007 12:00:15 AM
Just saw this - there's an update to the Stiglitz paper.  It was published after the last one, but still before the latest surge. 

In it he updates his estimate of the cost of the Iraq war to 2.3 trillion (without interest).  The full text is here:
www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/download/2006_Iraq_War_Milken.pdf

If you want to read more about Stiglitz, his home page is here:
www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/index.cfm

Heart,

eu4ea

 
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sentinel28a       1/16/2007 1:54:41 AM
EU, you think the war was a mistake and you post everything you can find to make your point.  Great--that's your right.
 
I'd post a counterargument, but since you won't listen, won't even try to be convinced otherwise, and will find some other way to villify anything and everyone associated with Iraq, what's the point?
 
Enjoy your echo chamber.
 
 
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eu4ea       1/16/2007 7:28:36 AM
Sentinel,

While you're right in that I think this particular war was mistake (as do roughly70% of Americans), I dont see how that disqualifies starting a thread about it's financial costs (sp a reasoned one, with several external links on the subject). 

How does that work? 

Heart,

eu4ea

 
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Bob       1/16/2007 9:00:47 AM
Haha you didn't even listen to him say that you wouldn't listen...
 
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Clausewitz    The left wants the west to loose the war   1/16/2007 10:52:32 AM
Here in Europe the left leaners - what you would call liberals -  do not want to see the west win in Irak, Afghanistan or elsewhere. They complain (in the open) the mistakes done, but secretley are happy with western casualties and failed strategies. Here in Europe have always been a anti american attitude (that is sad for me). Same for the american self haters. Liberals would always trade US-interests for votes. They would even let Iran get nukes or would accept genocide in Irak just to have a political advantage. If millions will die because of that, this (liberal) atrocities will be exused. In the end somehow the conservatives will be guilty anyway. Irak have been a risk. With sufficient support on the homefront - and from western allies - there will/would be a real chance of success. But liberals will try to prevent that. There are many honest dems I would not call liberal (some of them want to leave Irak to be capable to counter Irans nuclear ambitions). But for others I just can feel contempt. Here in Europe and in the US.
 
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Panther       1/16/2007 12:55:55 PM
 I saw you and shek starting this in that thread, and i must say... shek is one helluva debator, who also had already proved his point, as i see it, in that thread! Anyways...
 
(Just let me say this and i'll ignore this particular thread here on... and to the best of my abilities, which isn't saying much!) Sheesh... i don't understand you eu4ea! It's like 9-11 never happened! Oh Wait... It did happen, but only because of Jr.'s evil conspiracy for world domination and the desire for control of the world's oil market... ! Or he's a: ***Add any insulting language here, that doesn't prove a single point***! P.T. Barnum was right. There is a sucker born every minute!
 
There is a reason for Carthage losing to Rome. Do you have any clue what that may be???
 
 
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Ashley-the-man       1/16/2007 2:17:52 PM
  “My views are that;

1- This war is *wildly* expensive; already north of $1 trillion with current commitments, and will in all probability continue to rise well past it.
2- The costs of the war are being intentionally obfuscated by the George jr Administration. Further, they are financed primarily through debt so he can still claim to be a "conservative".
3- A victory at this cost is not victory at all even if it does come, which is far from clear in this case. “

 

Putting out any figure on the Iraq war is arbitrary. 
 
We should examine the “marginal” costs of the war on terror that includes Iraq

 The U.S. troop level is a given regardless of where they are deployed. The marginal costs in Iraq would include the extra costs of their maintenance and weapons expense. Another intangible is the training the military is gaining in combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan

 

I’d even debate if the cost will exceed what was spent in Vietnam. During that war the troops were paid subsistence wages and the draftees got out after two years. The low level of training then compared to a modern infantry unit required a larger force that somewhat offset the savings in lower wages. For those who have argued that a larger initial force in Iraq, consider a 500,000 Vietnam era army set loose with the special problems that a larger less capable army would create.

Also the money spent is not locked in a box and never used again. Like the space program, the money is still mostly recycled back to the U.S. economy. We can pay it in salary, bonus, and tax benefits to highly trained and deserving soldiers, or we could spend it on welfare in the U.S. 

The issue of the cost of the war is complex and belies an attempt to attach a single arbitrary figure.

 
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eu4ea       1/16/2007 9:33:59 PM

Bob,

Listen <not equal> agree. It's basic, but important

Heart,

eu4ea


Haha you didn't even listen to him say that you wouldn't listen...


 
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eu4ea       1/16/2007 9:47:06 PM
Thanks, Ashley

You're the only guy here who'd actually discuss the cost of the war.  The rest of the guys seem to be getting too tangled up on whether or not I think this war was a good idea, or whether the "lessons of 9/11" involve invading secular dictatorships.
Re: your points, I'd encourage you to read the paper - it's a good one.  The costs are indeed primarily marginal costs, and though it's not easy to tease it out from the Bush administration figures, I think Stiglitz does a very good job of it.  I'd love to hear about it if there are any other comparable studies, but as far as I know this one is head and shoulders above any other one that I'm aware of.

Heart,

eu4ea

 
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Panther       1/17/2007 2:44:55 PM

Thanks, Ashley

You're the only guy here who'd actually discuss the cost of the war.  The rest of the guys seem to be getting too tangled up on whether or not I think this war was a good idea, or whether the "lessons of 9/11" involve invading secular dictatorships.
Re: your points, I'd encourage you to read the paper - it's a good one.  The costs are indeed primarily marginal costs, and though it's not easy to tease it out from the Bush administration figures, I think Stiglitz does a very good job of it.  I'd love to hear about it if there are any other comparable studies, but as far as I know this one is head and shoulders above any other one that I'm aware of.

Heart,

eu4ea


One of the reason's i seem too get tangled up, as you say, is primarily due to the fact that if we fought a war on the cheap, there will alway's be someone who says were spending way too much on this or that or whatever! It's kind of like arguing with someone that the sky is blue, when they keep insisting that it is pink or purple. If they really wanted too be a smart-alec about it, they would insist that it is pitch black half of the time!
  Anyways... your view of the Iraq war being north of 1 trillion is a gross exaggeration, when everything i've seen has it at half of that, roughly in the ballpark of 550$ billion dollars. While i make no claim as too being an economic whiz, in fact... i was never very good at math in school, i would figure that it would make more sense, that if your going to compare the Vietnam and Iraq war cost's, you have too put it in the perspective of today's dollar amounts.
 
And if you really want too compare an outrageous expenditure amount for a particular era in a time of war, than have a look at WW2 costs and imagine what it would cost to fight a war such as that in our modern era today?
 
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