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Subject: Rumsfeldian Indignation Indeed -- Newly leaked Rumsfeld memo looks like cut and run to me
PaulG    12/3/2006 3:56:01 AM
NY TIMES: Rumsfeld Memo on Iraq Proposed ‘Major’ Change By MICHAEL R. GORDON and DAVID S. CLOUD Published: December 3, 2006 WASHINGTON, Dec. 2 — Two days before he resigned as defense secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld submitted a classified memo to the White House that acknowledged that the Bush administration’s strategy in Iraq was not working and called for a major course correction. “In my view it is time for a major adjustment,” wrote Mr. Rumsfeld, who has been a symbol of a dogged stay-the-course policy. “Clearly, what U.S. forces are currently doing in Iraq is not working well enough or fast enough.” Nor did Mr. Rumsfeld seem confident that the administration would readily develop an effective alternative. To limit the political fallout from shifting course, he suggested the administration consider a campaign to lower public expectations. “Announce that whatever new approach the U.S. decides on, the U.S. is doing so on a trial basis,” he wrote. “This will give us the ability to readjust and move to another course, if necessary, and therefore not ‘lose.’ ” “Recast the U.S. military mission and the U.S. goals (how we talk about them) — go minimalist,” he added. The memo suggests frustration with the pace of turning over responsibility to the Iraqi authorities; in fact, the memo calls for examination of ideas that roughly parallel troop withdrawal proposals presented by some of the White House’s sharpest Democratic critics. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/03/world/middleeast/03military.html?hp&ex=1165208400&en=e9d758c9885fe7c1&ei=5094&partner=homepage So, to answer Eu4ea's questions on the other topic (which seems broken): How many: 1- Folks still believe that "stay the course" in Iraq is a practical strategy 2- Folks still believe that our involvement in the war in Iraqs helps us win the war on terror 3- Folks still argue that we've achieved anything other than furthering Iran's strategic interests in the region 4- Folks still folks who argue that Iraq bears no resemblance to Vietnam Rumsfeld seems like a "no" on 1 and 2. Not sure what he'd say on 3 and 4.
 
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sentinel28a       12/3/2006 4:32:02 AM
The thread's working okay, Paul--the problem seems to be replying to anything.  In any case, my answers to your questions are in that thread, if you care to read them.
 
But you might as well skip it.  You're not going to listen anyway, so don't bother wasting your time.  I'm not really sure why I waste mine...I could be playing SimCity, which is apparently the point of reference that the left uses to rebuilding societies.  Sadly, the real world seems to be messier...
 
 
 
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eu4ea       12/3/2006 4:27:07 PM

The thread's working okay, Paul--the problem seems to be replying to anything.  In any case, my answers to your questions are in that thread, if you care to read them.

But you might as well skip it.  You're not going to listen anyway, so don't bother wasting your time.  I'm not really sure why I waste mine...I could be playing SimCity, which is apparently the point of reference that the left uses to rebuilding societies.  Sadly, the real world seems to be messier...

Yep, the thread is working ok, at least now.  There seem to be some instability problems with the more popular threads, but at least as of a few minutes ago, it seems to be working fine..

Re:  SimCity, nation building, the problems of "the left"...tee-hee-hee. 

Seriously, when's the last time "the left" spent $400 hundred (count them; four-hundred) billion on a nation-building exercise - let alone one that failed so miserably?   'Federal budget' -$400,000,000,000 to 'Democracy for arabs we just invaded' +$400,000,000,000.  There - how's that for a fantabulous accounting entry!

Also, what closer real world analogue to SimCity is there than Jerry Bremmer's CPA who locked themselves up in well-stocked palaces and *decreed*
- 'get electricity working',
- 'fire the entire army',
- 'fire 2/3rd of government workers',
- 'build a hospital, or two',
- 'fire the police',
- 'scratch that, dont build a single hospital'
- 'build a civil society',
- 'there is no civil war',
- 'establish a flat tax rate',
- 'make a stock market', 
- 'the insurgency is int's last throes',
- 'write a constitution',
- etc. etc.

Brother! Seems like those guys had their function keys programmed down to a 'T', doesnt it? 

Heart,

eu4ea



 
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Pseudonym       12/3/2006 5:27:22 PM
"Seriously, when's the last time "the left" spent $400 hundred (count them; four-hundred) billion on a nation-building exercise"

Well that would be Vietnam, or did you forget?

Oh wait, let me guess, you didn't know it was the Democrats who got us into Nam.
 
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swhitebull       12/3/2006 6:33:08 PM

"Seriously, when's the last time "the left" spent $400 hundred (count them; four-hundred) billion on a nation-building exercise"

Well that would be Vietnam, or did you forget?

Oh wait, let me guess, you didn't know it was the Democrats who got us into Nam.

And with NO SHAME at all, pulled the plug, instantly condemning 600,000 Vietnamese and well over 1,000,000 Cambodians to death. Thank you Senator Kennedy for THAT piece of work, and Im sure you sleep well at night, not caring. Make that 1,600,001 - Mary Jo Kopechne.
 
swhitebull
 
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PaulG       12/3/2006 6:51:05 PM
 
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PaulG       12/3/2006 6:52:32 PM
 
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eu4ea       12/3/2006 6:53:37 PM

"Seriously, when's the last time "the left" spent $400 hundred (count them; four-hundred) billion on a nation-building exercise"

Well that would be Vietnam, or did you forget?

Oh wait, let me guess, you didn't know it was the Democrats who got us into Nam.

Let's think through that one - the facts, nt the partisanship:

US involvement in the Vietnam war started with the US Military Assistance Advisor Group, MAAG in 1956 and ended with the fall of Saigon in 1975.  Some may argue a bit earlier (we started sending money to the French in 1950 and came up with the "Domino theory" in 1954, or a bit later (we had our first casualties in 1959), but that's roughly the range.
See were 5 US presidents during that period, 3 Republicans (Eisenhower, Nixon and Ford) and 2 Democrats (Kennedy and Jhonson).
The begining and the end of the Vietanm war both happened under Republican leadership. 
The strategic doctrine behind the vietnam war (the "Domino Theory") was proposed by a Republican, Eisenhower, in 1954 
The initial US involvement in the war (the
MAAG), it's expansion, and the first US casulaties in Vietnam all also happened under Eisenhower.
Kennedy's republican oponent in his 1960 election (Nixon) ran on a far more agressive pro-war platform.  Similarly,
Jhonson's republican oponent in his
1964 election (Republican Barry Goldwater of Arizona) also ran on a far more aggresive pro-war platform.
Most of the costs and casualties of the Vietnam war happened under Republicans, particularly Nixon.
Saigon finally fell under a Republican, Ford. The withdrawl was started by his predecesor, Nixon, before he was impeached.

Sooo... nope.  Claiming that the Vietnam war was a Democrat rather than a Republican policy is patently absurd.  The most that can be said is the Kennedy and Jhonson failed to stop that disastrous Republican policy - which is true, and for that they should be censored.  To claim that the whole thing was a Democrat invention is laugh-out-loud ridicalous.

The facts are that the war was started by Republicans, under a republican political theory.  It ended in defeat, under a Republican. Most of the presidents involved were Republicans, and most of the costs and casualties happened under Republican Administrations.  Further, the two Democrats that did become presidents during this time were far less pro-war than their Republican opponents.  Spin as you will; those are the facts of the case.

Heart,

eu4ea
 
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Bob       12/3/2006 7:19:35 PM
Hey Paul, the retards at the New York Times actually posted the full text of the memo, instead of just the ish they want to shovel down your throat so that you'll regurgitate their defeatest opinions - and yet you still did it anyways! Bravo. They should put you on their payroll.

Check it out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/03/world/middleeast/03mtext.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

The whole memo is there! You can read every single thing he said! How great is that??

Now his memo is a large list of suggestions of new strategies. MANY of them appear to be perfectly suited courses of action given our current situation in Iraq - especially "draw down to five bases by July 07", "position substantial forces near the Syrian & Iranian borders", and "retain high end SOF capabilities" to kill AQ & IRGC. More assets devoted to training the Iraqis is a no brainer, and the QRF is also a terrific idea. "Airstrikes on Damascus", sadly, was absent. But nonetheless, it was really a good read.

There are nearly two dozen suggestions in the memo. Many are terrific. But at the VERY BOTTOM, under a heading titled "LESS ATTRACTIVE OPTIONS" there is ONE SUGGESTION - "set a firm withdrawal date" - that could probably be interpretted as "cutting and running". Only one! And even then, it's clear that Rumsfeld knows that a firm withdrawal date, and even withdrawal itself, would be a disasterous move. My guess is that is why he (logically) put that option at the very bottom of the memo, and grouped it among the LEAST ATTRACTIVE.

So my question is, why is the title of your thread "looks like cut & run to me"? The whole memo is there for you to read. Several hundred words. Many paragraphs. Every single suggestion. Out of 20 or 25 points, there is one that sorta looks like "cut & run" - but you're saying the whole memo seems like "cut & run"? Did you read the whole memo? What gives?

Now I know idiot leftists are still running around in the middle of World War IV doing their best to contribute to the survival of Western Civilization by gossiping like they're in high school ("OMG, that guy is gay?", "he said it was a civil war! he admitted it!", etc, etc) and printing all the campus's secrets in their little school newspaper. But I'm disappointed, cause it was my hope, my long shot hope - my Doug Flutie Hail Mary *prayer* - that said leftists would at the VERY LEAST have the reading comprehension skills of even the dullest, dumbest, 200-for-putting-your-name-down SAT scoring high school student.

Guess I was wrong. Again. Batting like .013 here...

So, follow up question. If leftists like you can't read and comprehend the English language, why do we bother talking to you?

/end rant
/begin SimCity
 
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Bob       12/3/2006 7:22:19 PM
 
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eu4ea       12/3/2006 7:26:05 PM
Absurd.  Comically so. 

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that our withdrawl from Vietnam was started by President Nixon (69-74, a Republican), and the end of our involvement there happened with the fall of Saigon, unde President Ford (74-77, another Republican)

Here's a timeline for ya -

1969-75 No Kennedys dictated US troop levels during this period.  It was the President, see. Or rather the Presidents, both of whom were Republicans

1969 - "Vietnamization". Kinda like Iraqization; it means "let's have these guys defend themselves, while we pull out"
1970 Pres. Nixon cuts troop levels to 280k
1971 Pentagon papers published,
1972 Pres. Nixon cuts another 70k troops
1973 Pres. Nixon signs "peace with honor" and we scamper out of Vietnam
1974 We continue supplying South Vietnam. They get clobbered by the North.  Back home, Pres. Nixon resigns in a last-ditch attempt to avoid impeachment.
1975 Ford becomes president. Fall of Saigon.  Last Americans leave in a hurry.  Last US casualties in Vietnam.

I dont know what to make of it - the obvious thing would be to assume that you know these basic facts and dont realize that our retreat from Vietnam was planned, orchestrated and executed by Republicans.  Alternatively, maybe you do know this, but prefer to ignore it because it doesnt jive with your worldview.   Or maybe you've read some goofball far-right panflet that told you it wasnt so, and you loved hearing that.

I dont know which one's worse - extreme ignorance, mental cowardice, or believing conspiracy-theory pamphlets you picked up someplace...

Heart,

eu4ea


"Seriously, when's the last time "the left" spent $400 hundred (count them; four-hundred) billion on a nation-building exercise"

Well that would be Vietnam, or did you forget?

Oh wait, let me guess, you didn't know it was the Democrats who got us into Nam.

And with NO SHAME at all, pulled the plug, instantly condemning 600,000 Vietnamese and well over 1,000,000 Cambodians to death. Thank you Senator Kennedy for THAT piece of work, and Im sure you sleep well at night, not caring. Make that 1,600,001 - Mary Jo Kopechne.

swhitebull


 
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