One more thread - Kevin Tillman speaks

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eu4ea 10/24/2006 12:29:15 PM

Kevin Tillman speaks

After Pat’s Birthday...

Posted on Oct 19, 2006

Courtesy the Tillman Family

Pat Tillman (left) and his brother Kevin stand in front of a Chinook helicopter in Saudi Arabia before their tour of duty as Army Rangers in Iraq in 2003.

By Kevin Tillman...

Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical

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Ashley-the-man 10/24/2006 12:50:37 PM

Someday soon I'm going to get a call that my father, a WWII veteran, has passed away.

His generation was revered for supporting the war, not villified. His generation bought into the same information that was put out by his government and he and his fellow citizens supported it.

The more things change the more they stay the same. Prior to WWII, 80% of the population was opposed to going to war in Europe. The extreme liberals and conservatives were united in strong opposition. The neo-con president Roosevelt had a difficult task to engage the United States in the war in Europe. His diplomatic actions make the Niger yellow cake and other exortations by this government seem like a kindergarden class.

After WWI, the participants who lost so many young men said "Never Again!" And then there was WWII, Korea, Vietnam, GWI, Afghanistan, GWII, and the many conflicts that the other participants were mired in.

Tillman's brother echos the views of millions of Americans and others around the world. So what? Do they go out and start an America First Party and demand and end to U.S. forces stationed overseas? Or do they just wallow in in self pitty that they were duped by their government?

Maybe the United States needs to be like Japan, Germany, and Italy. Have someone take us over and then tend to all of our security issues. Short of that, we will continue to make dumb mistakes because of our active participation and medling in the world. I too feel bad that I have been lied to by my government all these years, but realize that as an adult that salty tear drops in my beer don't improve the flavor.

Johnny Fontain: "Godfather, I don't know what I can do."

The Godfather: SLAP SHAKE "You can act like a MAN."

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eu4ea 10/24/2006 1:59:14 PM

I think what Kevin Tillman is saying here is that "acting like a man" means challenging the "somehows" he listed.

You can hardly accuse him of apathy, lack of patriotism, or lack of "acting like a man".

It's likely that sooner or later he'll get "swiftboated" - but the fact of the matter is that Kevin Tillman is a guy who voluntarily left a confortable life and an MLB career (along with his brother Pat, who left an NFL career) to go fight in the front lines, put his life at risk, and make less than 1/10th of what he used to make. That qualifies as "acting like a man" in my book.

Heart,

eu4ea

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Ashley-the-man 10/24/2006 2:15:52 PM

"You can hardly accuse him of apathy, lack of patriotism, or lack of "acting like a man".

It's likely that sooner or later he'll get "swiftboated" "

Swiftboated? Are you implying that Kevin was a borderline incompetent commander whose fellow officers viewed him as a self serving malcontent? Are you implying that Kevin exponentionally magnified his injuries and battlefield acconplishments for the purpose later political of economic gain? Are you implying that Kevin will now go to Iran, or visit OBL to gain an understanding of the indignation of his former opponents? Are you implying that Kevin will fail have his picture up on museum walls as a hero of his former opponents? Are you implying that Kevin may have a problem with his discharge status and seek to have it "corrected" for a future career?

Are you implying that Kevin has had a highly questionable career when there is not yet information of the manner in which he served? It seems like you are the one who is casting Kevin in a less than favorable light.

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eu4ea 10/24/2006 3:11:43 PM

I'm guessing you dont seriously believe that's my opinion of Kevin Tillman. Hence the problem must be in our different interpretations of the term "Swiftboating".

My view is that it's a common-usage expression for "a smear campaign against a war veteran who speaks out against war." This is consistent with external definitions, such as en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiftboated

The origin of the name is an organization named "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" created in 2004 specifically with the purpose of undermining John Kerry's wartime record. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Vets_and_POWs_for_Truth

In most people's views, this represents a low point in partisan smear politics.

Heart,

eu4ea

"You can hardly accuse him of apathy, lack of patriotism, or lack of "acting like a man".

It's likely that sooner or later he'll get "swiftboated" "

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shek 10/24/2006 5:59:27 PM

Out of curiosity, should we accord anymore importance to what Kevin Tillman has to say than any other soldier? Does his words carry additional moral authority because of his situation?

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Pseudonym 10/24/2006 8:20:20 PM

"Does his words carry additional moral authority because of his situation?"

I feel bad for him, he lost his brother to friendly fire, which is what I think makes him think the way he does.

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swhitebull Kirby - this one's for you 10/24/2006 9:27:25 PM

"You can hardly accuse him of apathy, lack of patriotism, or lack of "acting like a man".

It's likely that sooner or later he'll get "swiftboated" "

Please don't get started on The Kerry and the use of the term Swift Boat. We've covered this extensively before. The charges leveled at The Kerry by those who served with him - as his peers and commanding officers - were NEVER disproven by The Kerry. The best he could do - and his supporters - was to accuse his accusers of lying - All 100 of them - about their observations of The Kerry and using his own memoirs and public comments on various incidents against him to show that he was unfit to serve as commander-in-chief.

I work with someone who served in the same outfit as The Kerry, around the same time, but who did not know him personally. This man was blown off his boat by a VC mine, survived and was awarded Purple Hearts and other medals, just like all those who came out against the Kerry. As the 2004 election got closer and closer, he became noticeably agitated and upset, and I asked him why.

His response was that what he knew second-hand about The Kerry was giving him nightmares - both how he served in Vietnam- as the ONLY officer to bug out and leave his men behind when he claimed wounds that were laughed at and shrugged off by others in his unit - and for his despicable conduct when he returned. That the MSM gave The Kerry a pass - Lawrence O'Donnell on Hardball repeatedly calling John O'Neill a liar (at least 33 times) without offering a shred of evidence how he was lying, whereas O'Neill and the other 100 - including Admiral Zumwalt's son as to the Kerry's record and unfitness to serve - is likewise reprehensible. My brother-in-law - who was President of NBC News at the time - suspended O'Donnell indefinitely after that incident as a political consultant to NBC.

I could on and on about how The Kerry aggrandized his record, discuss how it was mysteriously changed years later under the Carter adminstration, etc. And Im STILL waiting for The Kerry to release his war records - uncensored, where it will probably be shown that he was released less than honorably.

swhitebull - dont get me started. Thanks, Kirby, for hanging in there and getting the truth out. Swift Boating is now used as a perjorative, rather than actually examining what the charges were all about - rather than to make blanket charges that 100 of The Kerry's peers and higher ups - all highly decorated - called him UNFIT FOR COMMAND - and backed it up

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swhitebull 10/24/2006 9:36:04 PM

Out of curiosity, should we accord anymore importance to what Kevin Tillman has to say than any other soldier? Does his words carry additional moral authority because of his situation?

About as much moral authority as "grieving mother" Mama Moonbat Cindy Sheehan.

She can grieve with the rest of the families who have lost love ones - I dont have a problem with that - but when she ventures into making political speeches ghostwritten by Code Pink idiots - or is blatantly antiSemitic as has been recorded, and utters any other lunatic pronouncement as she has done - she IS FAIR GAME.

SHe is now suing to suppress the release of a book that questions her moral authority, detailing her descent into unhingedom in "American Mourning" (the juicey parts are documenting her getting into porno chatrooms, affair with a married man, etc).

What is ALSO documented in the book is how the Kerry campaign actively went to the funerals of soldiers, and solicited Gold Star Families to actively diss Bush and the War - they hit GOLD with Mama Moonbat.

swhitebull - an uneducated women caught up and used for political purposes by the fringe left, given a pass by the MSM, and in way over her head.

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eu4ea 10/24/2006 10:13:35 PM

Ashley, WhiteB,

The thread is about Kevin Tillman, not about Swift boats.

If it makes you feel better, please feel free to substitute my use of the term "swiftboating" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiftboating) for "partisan smear campaign", and if you want to discuss the swift boat episode, I encourage you to start a thread about it, preferably on the "United States" board.

Heart,

eu4ea

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