Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Iraq Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Where for art tho Lancet threads?
EW3    10/14/2006 6:52:31 PM
Is SP getting hacked. We've had 1 thread lock up so it can't be posted to. And the two replacement threads hacked. Seems like right after sheck makes cogent points about the fallacy of the report, the thread he does it on disappears.
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21   NEXT
swhitebull    Lancet Debunking Analysis    7/25/2007 1:56:59 PM

kanelancet1.jpg

kanelancet002.jpg

kanelancet003.jpg

kanelancet004.jpg

kanelancet005.jpg

kanelancet006.jpg

kanelancet007.jpg

kanelancet008.jpg

kanelancet009.jpg

kanelancet010.jpg

kanelancet011.jpg

kanelancet012.jpg

kanelancet013.jpg

kanelancet014.jpg

 
swhitebull -  Im SURE the MSM won't be reporting this.
 
Quote    Reply

Plutarch    More on Lancet   7/28/2007 11:59:37 PM

The British government was advised against publicly criticising a report estimating that 655,000 Iraqis had died due to the war, the BBC has learnt.

Iraqi Health Ministry figures put the toll at less than 10% of the total in the survey, published in the Lancet. But the Ministry of Defence's chief scientific adviser said the survey's methods were "close to best practice" and the study design was "robust". Another expert agreed the method was "tried and tested".

Mortality rates

The Iraq government asks the country's hospitals to report the number of victims of terrorism or military action. Critics say the system was not started until well after the invasion and requires over-pressed hospital staff not only to report daily, but also to distinguish between victims of terrorism and of crime.

The Lancet medical journal published its peer-reviewed survey last October. It was conducted by the John Hopkins School of Public Health and compared mortality rates before and after the invasion by surveying 47 randomly chosen areas across 16 provinces in Iraq. The researchers spoke to nearly 1,850 families, comprising more than 12,800 people. In nearly 92% of cases family members produced death certificates to support their answers. The survey estimated that 601,000 deaths were the result of violence, mostly gunfire.

Shortly after the publication of the survey in October last year Tony Blair's official spokesperson said the Lancet's figure was not anywhere near accurate. He said the survey had used an extrapolation technique, from a relatively small sample from an area of Iraq that was not representative of the country as a whole. President Bush said: "I don't consider it a credible report."

But a memo by the MoD's Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Roy Anderson, on 13 October, states: "The study design is robust and employs methods that are regarded as close to "best practice" in this area, given the difficulties of data collection and verification in the present circumstances in Iraq."

'Cannot be rubbished'

One of the documents just released by the Foreign Office is an e-mail in which an official asks about the Lancet report: "Are we really sure the report is likely to be right? That is certainly what the brief implies." The reply from another official is: "We do not accept the figures quoted in the Lancet survey as accurate. " In the same e-mail the official later writes: "However, the survey methodology used here cannot be rubbished, it is a tried and tested way of measuring mortality in conflict zones."

Asked how the government can accept the Lancet's methodology but reject its findings, the government has issued a written statement in which it said: "The methodology has been used in other conflict situations, notably the Democratic republic of Congo. "However, the Lancet figures are much higher than statistics from other sources, which only goes to show how estimates can vary enormously according to the method of collection. "There is considerable debate amongst the scientific community over the accuracy of the figures."

'Mainstreet bias'

In fact some of the British government criticism of the Lancet report post-dated Sir Roy's comments. Speaking six days after Sir Roy praised the study's methods, British foreign office minister Lord Triesman said: "The way in which data are extrapolated from samples to a general outcome is a matter of deep concern...."

Some scientists have subsequently challenged the validity of the Lancet study. Questions have been asked about the survey techniques and the possibility of "mainstreet bias".

Dr Michael Spagat of Royal Holloway London University says that most of those questioned lived on streets more likely than average to witness attacks: "It would appear they were only able to sample a small sliver of the country," he said. Dr Spagat has previously conducted research with Iraq Body Count, an NGO that counts deaths on the basis of media reports and which has produced estimates far lower than those published in the Lancet.

If the Lancet survey is right, then 2.5% of the Iraqi population - an average of more than 500 people a day - have been killed since the start of the war. The BBC World Service made a Freedom of Information Request on 28 November 2006. The information was released on 14 March 2007.
 
 
Quote    Reply

PlatypusMaximus       9/1/2007 8:51:23 AM

At least 1,809 civilians were killed in the month, compared to 1,760 in July, based on figures compiled by the AP from official Iraqi reports. That brings to 27,564 the number of Iraqi civilians killed since AP began collecting data on April 28, 2005.

The August total included 520 people killed in quadruple suicide bombings on Yazidi communities near the Syrian border. The horrific attacks made Aug. 14 was the single deadliest day since the war began in March 2003.
 
AP
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Plutarch    New Numbers   10/5/2007 5:21:16 PM
New Numbers on casualties in Iraq have come out; some of which are hard to believe.

First, the US military reported that 19,420+ insurgents have been killed, and we have accurate estimates of 7,000+ Iraqi police and security have been killed, all since the start of the war.  Which means that the rest of Iraqis killed since 2003 are either all non-combatants, or non-combatants and some insurgents who have not been counted as such.  We can only assume the former for now, unless we get more numbers of insurgents killed.  So,  we can subtract the above two numbers from any total to get an estimate of non-combatants. We have various  estimates on the number of Iraqis killed ranging from the low of IBC (75,000) to the high of over 1 million this most recent opinion survey of ORB:

September 2007 - More than 1,000,000 Iraqis murdered

In the week in which General Patraeus reports back to US Congress on the impact the recent ‘surge’ is having in Iraq, a new poll reveals that more than 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have been murdered since the invasion took place in 2003.

Previous estimates, most noticeably the one published in the Lancet in October 2006, suggested almost half this number (654,965 deaths).
These findings come from a poll released today by ORB, the British polling agency that has been tracking public opinion in Iraq since 2005. In conjunction with their Iraqi fieldwork agency a representative sample of 1,499 adults aged 18+ answered the following question:-

QHow many members of your household, if any, have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq since 2003 (ie as a result of violence rather than a natural death such as old age)? Please note that I mean those who were actually living under your roof.

None 78%
One 16%
Two 5%
Three 1%
Four or more 0.002%

Given that from the 2005 census there are a total of 4,050,597 households this data suggests a total of 1,220,580 deaths since the invasion in 2003. Calculating the affect from the margin of error we believe that the range is a minimum of 733,158 to a maximum of 1,446,063

Please click on this link if you want a local perspective on these figures - a short interview with our pollster Dr Munqeth Daghir - link

Detailed analysis (which is available on our website) indicates that almost one in two households in Baghdad have lost a family member, significantly higher than in any other area of the country. The governorates of Diyala (42%) and Ninewa (35%) were next.

The poll also questioned the surviving relatives on the method in which their loved ones were killed. It reveals that 48% died from a gunshot wound, 20% from the impact of a car bomb, 9% from aerial bombardment, 6% as a result of an accident and 6% from another blast/ordnance. This is significant because more often that not it is car bombs and aerial bombardments that make the news – with gunshots rarely in the headlines.

As well as a murder rate that now exceeds the Rwanda genocide from 1994 (800,000 murdered), not only have more than one million been injured but our poll calculates that of the millions of Iraqis that have fled their neighbourhoods, 52% have moved within Iraq but 48% have crossed its borders, with Syria taking the bulk of refugees.

And for those left in Iraq, although 81% may describe the availability of basic groceries such as bread and fresh vegetables as “very/fairly good”, more than one in two (54%) consider them to be “expensive”.
Note:
Quote    Reply

PlatypusMaximus       10/5/2007 7:07:42 PM
We can also assume from this data that the MNF-Iraq had bombed, by air, about 109,852 houses since march, 2003...an average of almost 67/day. We may not find out if that's true until after the dust settles.
 
Quote    Reply

PlatypusMaximus       10/5/2007 7:14:39 PM
I'm assuming that somebody has accounted for 543 of the IBC victims. Although, not in a very reliable manner.
 
Quote    Reply

Plutarch       10/11/2007 4:38:46 PM

I'm assuming that somebody has accounted for 543 of the IBC victims. Although, not in a very reliable manner.


 

Just posting what's out there.  I didn't say the poll was accurate, but these numbers are still going up.  Even the low IBC number has 81,000 dead.  You won't even admit that low level, and I think their off by half.  Well whatever, keep telling yourself those 500 "WMD" were worth it.
 
Quote    Reply

PlatypusMaximus       10/28/2007 7:46:27 AM
I never said they were worth it. I said that Iraqi chemical artillery shells were banned, unclaimed, WMD's by definition and that we found them when Saddam and intl. weapons inpection teams could not. You keep telling yourself that the manufacture date of the banned WMDs in Iraq is evidence of Iraqi UN cooperation.

Oct.28
The statistics compiled by Baghdad?s interior, defence and health ministries indicate that 285 Iraqis have been killed since the start of October, including both civilians and security personnel...
 
Either you got duped or the war is now won, which is it?
 
Quote    Reply

Plutarch       10/28/2007 6:43:29 PM

I never said they were worth it. I said that Iraqi chemical artillery shells were banned, unclaimed, WMD's by definition and that we found them when Saddam and intl. weapons inpection teams could not. You keep telling yourself that the manufacture date of the banned WMDs in Iraq is evidence of Iraqi UN cooperation.

Oct.28
The statistics compiled by Baghdad?s interior, defence and health ministries indicate that 285 Iraqis have been killed since the start of October, including both civilians and security personnel...

 

Either you got duped or the war is now won, which is it?




Either you got duped or the war is now won, which is it?

That?s a false dichotomy; there are other explanations for the drop in violence. Statistics bear out that possibly 20% of the Iraqi population is gone, either dead (up to 1 million) or made refugees, or internally displaced (up to 5 million). With those kinds of numbers I would be surprised if the violence didn?t fall as targets are becoming fewer and fewer.

 

As for the alleged WMD, you?re making presumptions about them.  All we know is what the unclassified NGIC report stated, that report was released by the now defeated Rick Santorum.  It only stated that the military had in its possession 500 shells, some of which contained degraded mustard gas.  It is unclear and thus unknown how they were found or in what condition they were found, or who helped them find it.  What we do know is that Saddam accounted for all of his chemical shells; either through destruction in the Iran-Iraq War, unilateral destruction in 1991, or UNSCOM destruction after the Gulf War, except for 500 shells which he declared ?missing?.  Now it could be very likely that these shells are the same 500 that went ?missing? (probably off the inventory sheet, an accounting error, or just abandoned after the Iran-Iraq war), but that?s a presumption. It could be that there are still 500 more shells out there that haven?t been found; or they have been found and haven?t been reported.  If that?s the case then Saddam would have something to answer for if he wasn?t already dead. As it stands though the number of shells (I assume it?s a total number that includes the shells the ISG mentioned in their report) found is approximately the same number Iraq declared "missing".

 

We believed, or were led to believe, that Saddam had not been full and complete with his disclosure and that he was undercounting the number of WMD that he produced, hiding large quantities of them (for some nefarious purpose).  That turned out to be not the case, nor was it the case that Saddam had re-started any of his weapons programs. The neo-cons were duped, or duped their followers, either way both looked foolish after the war, and so went grasping for straws.  These paltry 500 shells were seized upon by the right-wing media, and then by you, as proof that the war effort is vindicated.  If you want to argue that these 500 shells were in violation of the UN Security Council resolutions, it?s a moot point since the war was never authorized by the UN Security Council.  If you want to argue that these shells constituted a grave threat to American security, that?s silly since Saddam didn?t have any delivery vehicles for these shells, and it is questionable how potent ?degraded? gas really is.

 

Finally, given the state Iraq is in now, and has been since the invasion (worsened economic conditions, millions dead or left homeless), and given the (presumed) fact that these 500 shells are all that was found of Saddam?s programs (that weren?t found by inspectors) it seems to be a fair question to ask if finding those 500 shells was worth the destruction of Iraq.  You?re saying now (I think) that the war effort wasn?t worth it to find those 500 shells, so I am assuming then that you are in agreement with me


 
Quote    Reply

displacedjim       10/28/2007 7:14:15 PM
It's okay to be biased, but I think few would consider it okay to be biased while pretending not to be.  That you even allowed your fingers to type the words one million Iraqi dead (regardless of any half-hearted attempt at a prefunctory caveat), thus giving even the slightest credence to that absurd number, is prima facie evidence of your bias.
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy