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Subject: Where for art tho Lancet threads?
EW3    10/14/2006 6:52:31 PM
Is SP getting hacked.
We've had 1 thread lock up so it can't be posted to.
And the two replacement threads hacked.
Seems like right after sheck makes cogent points about the fallacy of the report, the thread he does it on disappears.
 
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PlatypusMaximus       11/10/2007 7:38:30 AM
Deliverable is a chemical-filled shell. Non-deliverable is a vial...Your point has to do with nothing more than the manufacture date....which you are certain makes hundreds of chemical-filled artillery shells, non-toxic, harmless, and non-deliverable.  A dead duck is not a swan.
 
 
 
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Plutarch       11/10/2007 1:29:35 PM

Deliverable is a chemical-filled shell. Non-deliverable is a vial...Your point has to do with nothing more than the manufacture date....which you are certain makes hundreds of chemical-filled artillery shells, non-toxic, harmless, and non-deliverable.  A dead duck is not a swan.

 

 



What are you talking about PM? Please learn to write in complete sentences, that follow a logical pattern so I can understand them.  My point, and I will reiterate it again, is that we don't know the condition of those shells, or where they were found.  Were they left exposed to the elements?  Did that cause them to become ineffective?  Were they stored improperly thus rendering the gas ineffective, ala the sarin shell found in 2004?  Were they part of the blast pits and thought to be destroyed, only to be partially destroyed, and did that render them ineffective?  Or if you like, were they found next to Saddam, in perfect condition just awaiting his orders to launch them (which begs the question, why weren't they used)? 
 
We can be fairly certain that these shells were not new, that Saddam's programs were not re-started, thus by default they are old shells.  Old shells will eventually decay, the gas inside will erode, and thus they will no longer be 'deliverable' WMD.  The only question that remains is how effective could these shells have been as WMD (i.e. could they be launched, could they do damage, etc.).  If they couldn't be launched or delivered in some way than they wouldn't be very effective as WMD now would they?  We don't know for sure, so we shouldn't speculate.  All we have is 500 shells that had some gas in them, that may or may not have been deliverable.  So by YOUR definition they are still not WMD, until more is know about them.  Can we get Saddam on a UN Security Council Resolution violation? Perhaps if the UNSC had agreed there was a violation, but they didn't, at least not one that warranted the invasion.  So now we are left with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead or wounded and nothing really to show for our efforts except these 500 shells.
 
 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       11/10/2007 4:39:25 PM
When you prove that you're capable of comprehending the meaning of a word then we'll move onto complete sentences.
 
Trying to help.
 
1441 + chemical-filled artillery shells in Iraq = bad.
 
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SGTObvious       11/12/2007 9:17:46 AM
"Old shells will eventually decay, the gas inside will erode, and thus they will no longer be 'deliverable' WMD."
 
Since they will still KILL after 50 years of burial, this option requires an unacceptably high level of patience.
 
The fact is, Saddam did not have a functional weapons program.  But when we wanted to verify that fact, he jerked our chain.  Bad move.   Never jerk the chain of a superpower that has just been hit with a massive terror attack. 
 
The other fact is, the weapons program could have been restarted at any time.  Chemical weapons are 1914 tech.  No challenge for any nation with an oil industry, and a few college educated chemical engineers.  And yes, Saddam did have a desire to restart the program. 
 
Now we are 100% certain that he will not.
 
SGTObvious.
 
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SOP919F3       11/14/2007 4:44:26 AM

"Old shells will eventually decay, the gas inside will erode, and thus they will no longer be 'deliverable' WMD."

Since they will still KILL after 50 years of burial, this option requires an unacceptably high level of patience.

The fact is, Saddam did not have a functional weapons program.  But when we wanted to verify that fact, he jerked our chain.  Bad move.   Never jerk the chain of a superpower that has just been hit with a massive terror attack. 

The other fact is, the weapons program could have been restarted at any time.  Chemical weapons are 1914 tech.  No challenge for any nation with an oil industry, and a few college educated chemical engineers.  And yes, Saddam did have a desire to restart the program. 
 
Now we are 100% certain that he will not.
 
SGTObvious.

Very good points.  If I may add my $2, (or 30 Euros) Saddam really didn't believe Americans were the threat, but a Shia uprising.  His purposeful intelligence leaks about his fake weapons program in the end, well, got him hung by the same people he tried to threaten.  How ironic...

 
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Pseudonym       11/14/2007 7:41:54 AM
 American UN Weapons Inspectors commented on the insane amount of dual use "pesticides" stored at Iraqi ammunition depots.  Dual use pesticides at an ammunition depot.  Let's think about possible uses and an Administration that freaked out over mobile Chemical Weapons Labs.  I wonder why....

Anyways, as Sgt. Obvious implies, there was plenty of WMD for Saddam to scare his intended target.

His own people.  Shia and Kurd alike.

Some day the world might understand that we are not fighting Al Qaeda, but the underlying culture which spawned Yousef, KSM, etc...
 
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swhitebull    Damning Report and Analysis of the Lancet Survey   1/4/2008 10:57:14 AM
from national review:
 

Damning Report on the Lancet's Iraq Survey   [Michael Rubin]

Last year, the British medical journal Lancet published a bombshell report suggesting that more than 600,000 Iraqi civilians had died as a result of Operation Iraqi Freedom and its aftermath.  Neil Munro has conducted an in-depth investigation into the survey and has a great piece out in the National Journal:  Neil summarizes:

George Soros funded the survey. The U.S. authors played no role in data-collection, and did not apply standard anti-fraud measures. The chief Iraqi data-collector had earlier produced medical articles to help Saddam?s anti-sanctions campaign in the 1990s, and said Allah guided the prior 2004 Lancet/Johns Hopkins death-survey. Some of the field surveyors were employed by Moqtada Sadr?s Ministry of Health. The Iraqis? numbers contain evidence of fakery, and the Lancet did not check for fakery.

The whole article is here.
 
swhitebull - beating a dead horse, but hey, we strive for completeness, unlike Lancet. I just LOVE the Soros connection; it REALLY increases the credibility of the study.
 
 
 
 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       1/6/2008 3:21:01 PM
The new spin from the Moveovers, in this case Moveunders, is to quietly accept the IBC numbers, which they ridiculed, but use those numbers to continue to blame every documented civilian and police death in Iraq on the US military.
(IBC mentions that their numbers include civilian deaths caused by US forces.)

"US-LED coalition and paramilitary forces in Iraq were responsible for some 24,000 violent civilian deaths in 2007, according to an independent group monitoring casualties in the war-ravaged country".
link
 
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swhitebull    LONG Time - BUt Final Lancet Nailed Driven In    2/5/2009 9:24:45 PM
link
 
 
swhitebull -  you wait long enough, the truth wills out.
 
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Panther       3/4/2009 10:52:30 AM
I think the credibility of the study was always suspect and subservient to politics. Soros got the results he wanted. Obama is now in office and how many times have they needed too revise the numbers?
 
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