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Subject: Where for art tho Lancet threads?
EW3    10/14/2006 6:52:31 PM
Is SP getting hacked.
We've had 1 thread lock up so it can't be posted to.
And the two replacement threads hacked.
Seems like right after sheck makes cogent points about the fallacy of the report, the thread he does it on disappears.
 
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Plutarch       1/17/2007 12:58:04 AM


The Health Minister was asked how he came up with 150,000....he admitted it was NOTHING more than a guess based upon 100/day for 4 years. That is 100% of your data out of Iraq...(100*365*4).....and 99 days out of 100 those numbers don't jive with the available Iraq information from all over the world  His number was/is automatically triple the previous numbers from Iraqi institutions and the media (+/- 55,000)...which jived with eachother untill Lancet, and this new number...Yes the ho-hum violence is reported on from Iraq...all the way down to single-victim drive-bys and "a construction worker was shot and killed in YakDungistan". There are just as many if not more instances of multiple reporting than there are unreported acts of war.

 I meant Hispaniola. something in a subsequent post made me think you got that. Right around the time of 9/11 it was news (barley a blip)that there were 275 homicides in the Dominican republic. pop. 69,000..Just Homicides...I lumped Haiti in with that violence and had Dominica on the brain.

We were wrong to think the Arabs and Shia in that area might fancy themselves as Iraqis after Saddam fell. Time will tell that any of us were wrong to believe a single word they ever said.



Baghdad had an official murder rate of 266 per 100,000 in 2006 with 16,000 murders documented by the Sadrists…err Health Ministry. How many more went undocumented is hard to say.  The UN also reported nearly 35,000 civilians died as a result of violence in Iraq or about 95 per day.  That’s a murder rate of 135 per 100,000, greater than Columbia and South Africa combined (the two countries with the next highest murder rates).  The murder rate for the US is about 5.5 per 100,000.  It isn’t 600,000 but it isn’t the low rate the media states either…icasualties.org and AP/Reuters report numbers less than a third of what the UN states.  One could also speculate that the numbers for 2004 and 2005 stated by the media were also low, and the actual numbers could be around 100 per 100,000 or 26,000 murders per year, and a lower number in 2003 which would put the total for the war close to or exceeding 100,000 dead civilians.  Throw in 55,000 dead insurgents and 15,000 dead police/army and yes you have a number of at least 150,000 dead Iraqis in 4 years or about .5% of the population.  Throw in 3 million refugees and you got yourself a civil war/mess/serious crisis.


 
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eu4ea       1/17/2007 2:15:55 AM
Wow, cant believe this thread is still going strong...

Anyway, there's a brand new United Nations report on the civilian death toll in Iraq, released on Tuesday.  I couldnt find a link to the PDF of the report (if anyone sees it, please post the link), but here's a press article with a summary of the main points;

www.nytimes.com/2007/01/17/world/middleeast/17iraq.html

If you dont like the Times, google away and I'm sure you can find lots of other secondary sources - or ideally the pdf of the original report, that would be the best.

Briefly the main points are;
- It counts only violent civilian deaths (army/police deaths are counted separately),
- It's based on official death certificates, and the data was obtained by going to various morgues and hospitals
- It covers almost all of 2006 (they couldnt get December totals from all provinces before publication). 

The figure they came up with was 32,452, which works out to an average of 94/day for 11 months, pretty close to the 100/day average that has been used around this board.  They cite army/police death at another 12,000 or so, and the full December totals will probably add around 3000, so overall we're looking at roughly 47,000 violent deaths for the year, or 128/day, on average.

IMHO, this is an undercount; the process the UN is using is dependent on 3 vast generalizations -
1 that every victim gets a death certificate,
2 that every death certificate is detected & counted by whatever hardworking team they had digging around Iraq for this
3 that every death is caused by direct violent action, as opposed to disease, lack of medical care, privation or whatever

Still, at least it gives some sense of what the situation we're facing on the ground is, as opposed to the absurdity of Iraq body count and the like.

Heart,

eu4ea
 
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shek       1/17/2007 7:52:02 AM
Here's the report address:
 
link
 
Here's the base website - www.uniraq.org
 
Go to the "Human Rights" link and you'll find all the reports dating back a year and a half.
 
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swhitebull    Bpogus and Fraudelent?    3/4/2007 10:35:35 PM
From LittleGreenFootballs, reporting on a peer review that smacks Lancet left and right, up and down, for fraud:
 
 

Lancet's Iraq Study: Bogus, Possibly Fraudulent

Remember the study released last year by British medical journal The Lancet that ludicrously claimed more than 650,000 Iraqis had died as a result of the Iraq War? The study that was seized upon by “anti-war” groups, and is now cited as fact and repeated endlessly in the propaganda from International ANSWER, CODEPINK, Stop the War Coalition and every other loony left organization on the planet?

Now, a damning peer review has come to the conclusion that the Lancet’s study has “no scientific standing”?and may in fact be fraudulent.

Well, knock me over with a feather.

Could 650,000 Iraqis really have died because of the invasion?

One critic is Professor Michael Spagat, a statistician from Royal Holloway College, University of London. He and colleagues at Oxford University point to the possibility of “main street bias” – that people living near major thoroughfares are more at risk from car bombs and other urban menaces. Thus, the figures arrived at were likely to exceed the true number. The Lancet study authors initially told The Times that “there was no main street bias” and later amended their reply to “no evidence of a main street bias”.

Professor Spagat says the Lancet paper contains misrepresentations of mortality figures suggested by other organisations, an inaccurate graph, the use of the word “casualties” to mean deaths rather than deaths plus injuries, and the perplexing finding that child deaths have fallen. Using the “three-to-one rule” – the idea that for every death, there are three injuries – there should be close to two million Iraqis seeking hospital treatment, which does not tally with hospital reports.

“The authors ignore contrary evidence, cherry-pick and manipulate supporting evidence and evade inconvenient questions,” contends Professor Spagat, who believes the paper was poorly reviewed. “They published a sampling methodology that can overestimate deaths by a wide margin but respond to criticism by claiming that they did not actually follow the procedures that they stated.” The paper had “no scientific standing”. Did he rule out the possibility of fraud? “No.”

If you factor in politics, the heat increases. One of the Lancet authors, Dr Les Roberts, campaigned for a Democrat seat in the US House of Representatives and has spoken out against the war. Dr Richard Horton, Editor of the Lancet is also antiwar.
 
 
swhitebull -  you be the judge.  I'm sure more to come.  
 
 
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eu4ea       3/13/2007 3:49:16 PM
Wow, cant believe this thread is still alive...

Re: that latest post... phooey.  We've got an economist at the Royal Holloway college saying he disagrees, and that there's "main street bias". 

Great, very constructive.  How the heck main street bias applies to violent deaths evades me - how "main" were these streets and why would people get killed more often on main streets than on side streets? Would death squads prefer a thoroughfare to a nice quiet side street?  Are people kidnapped at work and then take to a remote field to be shot likelier to live in a main street or a side street? Is there a reason to think car bombs or airstrikes happen more often on the one than on the other?

Seems like sketchy non-news to me.  Frankly, unless we learn of any reasons why this is in *any* way relevant, my assumption is that posting this is a way to celebrate that someone (anyone) shares your pre-conceptions.  Which may be gratifying but is uninteresting.

As far as I'm concerned, until someone else does a study of superior or even comparable quality, other facts (including the opinions of economists at second-tier colleges in London) are just not that relevant.

By a comparable/superior study I mean one involving;
- extensive fieldwork in Iraq,
- direct sampling of the population,
- a randomly selected geographically distributed sample of greater than 10,000 individuals,
- a published methodology, and
- peer-reviewed publication in a leading scientific journal.

As far as I know, that hasnt happened yet, but I'd love to find out when it does happen.

Heart,

eu4ea 



 
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Pseudonym       3/13/2007 6:21:57 PM
"By a comparable/superior study I mean one involving;" Things that the Lancet study never heard of comprehended or cared about while producing YET ANOTHER political maelstrom.

"- extensive fieldwork in Iraq,"

Yes, it would be nice to see this, sorta like the other death toll numbers accumulated by LEGITIIMATE AUTHORITY USING ACTUAL FACTS.


"- direct sampling of the population, "

Yes the actual sampling is done by COUNTING THE BODIES.  Not by calling less then a hundred houses in an ENTIRE COUNTRY and asking how many people they knew who died then multiplying till you reach 650,000.

"- a randomly selected geographically distributed sample of greater than 10,000 individuals,"

Wow, you mean do the exact opposite of what lancet did right?  Cause lancet sampled 100 housefolds.  Not 10,000 people, 100 people speaking for 100 houses.  Lancet wasn't a study in Iraqi deaths, Lancet was a study in how anything is possible when a DEMOCRATICALLY TIED organization decides to produce a POLITICAL LIE just in time for ANOTHER ELECTION (second time man, this getting through to you) using no facts and the most unreliable scientific method possible.  We did sampling in High School for our guidance counselor for extra credit.  When we did that the Guidance Counselor was quite specific in wanting at least 200 samples from our high school of 1500.  LANCET TOOK 100 SAMPLES FROM A NATION OF 30 MILLION.

"- a published methodology, and"

That would be nice, basically you are listing everything Lancet should have done to be a legitimate review.

"- peer-reviewed publication in a leading scientific journal."

Sorta like the peer-review SW listed showing that Lancet was a political travesty.

"As far as I know, that hasnt happened yet, but I'd love to find out when it does happen."

They did one better Eu.  It's called the Iraqi Government.  You see they count up all the dead bodies, and do the actual investigation, but instead you decide to listen to people who are notorious for putting out Political lies during elections.  Why?  If you are going to beleive every lie that is told until 100 percent proven wrong you will spend your life lost.
 
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eu4ea       3/13/2007 9:08:09 PM
Pseudo,

It's repetitive and bordering on tedious to go through this one more time, but here we go again...

=============================
"- extensive fieldwork in Iraq,"
Yes, it would be nice to see this, sorta like the other death toll numbers accumulated by LEGITIIMATE AUTHORITY USING ACTUAL FACTS.

That would be lovely.

"- direct sampling of the population, "
Yes the actual sampling is done by COUNTING THE BODIES.  Not by calling less then a hundred houses in an ENTIRE COUNTRY and asking how many people they knew who died then multiplying till you reach 650,000.

Umm... nope.  It isnt done by "counting the bodies".  Not in Iraq, not in Dafur, not in East Timor, not in the Congo, not in Algeria, not in Bosnia, not in Guatemala any not in any other comparable conflict.  You're wrong - "counting the bodies" is just not the way it's done, and claiming it's so simply undermines your argument's credibility. 

Heck, "body counting" is not even in natural disasters, tsunamis, floods, famines and the like.  *Certainly* not in areas with active fighting daily - its a complete fantasy to think you could daily cover an entire country roughly the size of Texas with a civil war going on, multiple militias, checkpoints, death squads, IEDs, RPGs, porous borders, foreign fighters, foreign armies, no-go zones etc. etc.

Nix to the "less than a hundred houses", too.  It was 1849 households.  You're off by about 20x, probably as a result of not having read it. 

"- a randomly selected geographically distributed sample of greater than 10,000 individuals,"

Wow, you mean do the exact opposite of what lancet did right?  Cause lancet sampled 100 housefolds.  Not 10,000 people, 100 people speaking for 100 houses.  Lancet wasn't a study in Iraqi deaths, Lancet was a study in how anything is possible when a DEMOCRATICALLY TIED organization decides to produce a POLITICAL LIE just in time for ANOTHER ELECTION (second time man, this getting through to you) using no facts and the most unreliable scientific method possible.  We did sampling in High School for our guidance counselor for extra credit.  When we did that the Guidance Counselor was quite specific in wanting at least 200 samples from our high school of 1500.  LANCET TOOK 100 SAMPLES FROM A NATION OF 30 MILLION.

Once again, this shows nothing other than the fact that you're oblivious to even basic outline facts.   I'm not trying to be rude here, it's just the only explanation I can find for being wrong by a factor of 20, and insisting on it. If you want the actual figures, see
www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf

The Cliff Notes version is that the sample included 12,549 people in 1849 households divided into 47 clusters covering all of Iraq's 18 provinces
, with sample density adjusted to reflect pre-war population.


"- a published methodology, and"
That would be nice, basically you are listing everything Lancet should have done to be a legitimate review.

Indeed.  The methodology is outlined in significant detail in the .pdf I gave you a link to above, and if you want more there's a second paper on just this.  I might add that, while not perfect, the extent to which they have openly published their methodology is far greater than any other mortality survey I have seen - but of course if you know of a better one please send the link.


"- peer-reviewed publication in a leading scientific journal."
Sorta like the peer-review SW listed showing that Lancet was a political travesty.

SW?  Sorry, I dont know who you mean. 
The leading scientific journals in the world today are publications like Nature, Science, The Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine, PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Science), arguably even Scientific American.  SW - sorry, I have no idea who that is, but I'm pretty certain they're not in the same league.


"As far as I know, that hasnt happened yet, but I'd love to find out when it does happen."
They did one better Eu.  It's called the Iraqi Government.  You see they count up all the dead bodies, and do the actual investigation, but instead you decide to listen to people who are notorious for putting out Political lies during elections.  Why?  If you are going to beleive every lie that is told until 100 percent proven wrong you will spend your life lost.


You've *got* to be kidding. Unfortunately the 'official' Iraqi statistics are terrible - which is disappointing, but also typical in what we've seen in previous conflicts (The governments of Bosnia, Congo, Timor, Guatemala, Algeria, etc. were not too great at statistic fieldwork either). 

If you're not kidding, I suggest you read some of the posts above, such as the one where the Iraqi Health minister came up with an estimate of 150,000 deaths by taking 100 dead per day and multiplying that by four years.
======================



 
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swhitebull       3/13/2007 9:23:51 PM
Please, continue knocking yourself out defending and justifying a politically-motivated study, that is now being peer-reviewed.  You will continue to believe what you want, since you dont want to be confused with the facts. Do you take you koolaide straight up, or with a chaser?  Again,   produce the bodies. You cant - that's the bottom line.
 
I have nothing more to say to you, and will not respond to your comments.
 
 
swhitebull
 
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PlatypusMaximus       3/13/2007 10:23:01 PM
"If you're not kidding, I suggest you read some of the posts above, such as the one where the Iraqi Health minister came up with an estimate of 150,000 deaths by taking 100 dead per day and multiplying that by four years. "
--eu4arrhea
 
 
 

The new deaths came a day after Iraqi Health Minister Ali al-Shemari estimated 150,000 civilians have been killed in the war?about three times previously accepted estimates.

In comments to the AP during a visit to Austria, al-Shemari said he based his figure on an estimate of 100 bodies per day brought to morgues and hospitals?although such a calculation would come out closer to 130,000 in total.

"It is an estimate," al-Shemari said. -----
 
breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8LAC4OG1&show_article=1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
A figure of 100,000 to 150,000 was estimated by Iraq's Health Minister in a November 2006 press conference, based on extrapolating the recent 2006 rate of 100 deaths per day recorded in hospitals and morgues backward to March 2003.
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-invasion_Iraq,_2003%E2%80%932006
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Previous estimates of Iraq deaths held that 45,000-50,000 have been killed in the nearly 44-month-old conflict, according to partial figures from Iraqi institutions and media reports. No official count has ever been available.

Health Minister Ali al-Shemari gave his new estimate of 150,000 to reporters during a visit to Vienna, Austria. He later told The Associated Press that he based the figure on an estimate of 100 bodies per day brought to morgues and hospitals _ though such a calculation would come out closer to 130,000 in total.

"It is an estimate," al-Shemari said.
 
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111000164.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
 
 
 
...if he won't respond to you, I will...
 
IS THERE ANYTHING UNCLEAR ABOUT THIS?
 
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PlatypusMaximus       3/14/2007 12:29:57 AM
Hell, eu4arrhea (may I?) if you like kidding around, scroll up to where some joker slimed our entire effort there by saying 6 civilians were burned alive whle police looked on...from a source that turned out to not exist. Look where somebody "threw in" 55,000 dead insurgents...All in a post where they're claiming to have the proper information and statistics..
 
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PlatypusMaximus       3/14/2007 12:30:12 AM
Hell, eu4arrhea (may I?) if you like kidding around, scroll up to where some joker slimed our entire effort there by saying 6 civilians were burned alive whle police looked on...from a source that turned out to not exist. Look where somebody "threw in" 55,000 dead insurgents...All in a post where they're claiming to have the proper information and statistics..
 
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Pseudonym       3/14/2007 12:31:03 AM
I love it.

Your arguement is about twelve times as many people died as reported.

This is out of a nation of oh we'll pad it a little and say 30 million, remember by adding it goes to your side of the arguement, something those of us looking for the truth between the two extremes are rather willing to do.  So we are talking around 1 person dead in every 46, lets say 50, pad it your way some more lol.

Now please explain the mass conspiracy taking place in a country teeming with journalists and their stringers all looking for dead bodies in which no one noticed twelve times the number of dead, something like one in fifty Iraqi's dying, all mysteriously missed.

I got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn, interested?

 
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PlatypusMaximus       3/14/2007 12:32:00 AM
Hey! Scored me a double!
 
 
By the way...
 

As of March 11, 2007 approximately 7,056 insurgents/militia have been reported killed according to the linked sources or articles.

  • 2007: 1,051
  • 2006: 1,448
  • 2005: 1,005
  • 2004: 3,377
  • 2003: 175

In addition as of March 11, 2007 approximately 522 suicide-bombers have also reported to been killed, see list here.

  • August 2003 - December 2003: 27
  • January 2004 - May 2004: 31
  • June 2004 - October 2004: 44
  • November 2004 - March 2005: 78
  • April 2005 - September 2005: 170
  • October 2005: 2
  • November 2005: 4
  • December 2005: 3
  • January 2006: 12
  • March 2006: 5
  • April 2006: 6
  • May 2006: 6
  • June 2006: 5
  • July 2006: 6
  • August 2006: 7
  • September 2006: 4
  • October 2006: 17
  • November 2006: 15
  • December 2006: 22
  • January 2007: 16
  • February 2007: 30
  • March 2007: 11

Grand total: 7,578 insurgent dead

 
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eu4ea       3/14/2007 1:27:17 PM

Please, continue knocking yourself out defending and justifying a politically-motivated study, that is now being peer-reviewed.  You will continue to believe what you want, since you dont want to be confused with the facts. Do you take you koolaide straight up, or with a chaser?  Again,   produce the bodies. You cant - that's the bottom line.
 
I have nothing more to say to you, and will not respond to your comments.
 
swhitebull

This just shows an endearing  mixture of ignorance and conviction, whiteb.  The reality, however, is that "show me the bodies" is not an argument but the lack of one. 

The simple fact is that body-counting is just not the way death tolls in large scale civil conflicts are calculated - not in Iraq, not in Dafur, not in East Timor, not in the Congo, not in Algeria, not in Bosnia, not in Guatemala any not in any other comparable conflict.  There's a lot of experience with precisely this problem in conflicts across the world, and the body-counting solution you propose is impractical, amateur & even somewhat childish - up there with "show me the raindrops" as a way to measure the size of a storm.

I think that in your mind you know this is the case, and if you are even minimally fact-oriented you would also know that direct body counts almost never detect even 20% of conflict casualties.   In fact the only comparable conflict in the past 30 years where body-counting detected over 20% of casualties was in Bosnia - a conflict in a much smaller European country were many of the deaths occurred in mass killings by organized forces (Srebrenica, Sarajevo and the like). Even there body counts detected under 1/3 of fatalities.

Further, you may also know that the fatality rate in Iraq as estimated by Jhon Hopkin's (roughly 2.5% of the population over 4 years of fighting, or about 0.5% percent per year) is absolutely typical of comparable conflicts.  What you propose (50,000 deaths) comes to 0.18% of the population over 4 years of fighting, or 0.045% per year - a number so outlandishly low it hardly deserves comment.

Facts, sir....they can be such pesky & annoying things.

Heart,

eu4ea

 
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eu4ea       3/14/2007 2:13:54 PM

I love it.

Your arguement is about twelve times as many people died as reported.

This is out of a nation of oh we'll pad it a little and say 30 million, remember by adding it goes to your side of the arguement, something those of us looking for the truth between the two extremes are rather willing to do.  So we are talking around 1 person dead in every 46, lets say 50, pad it your way some more lol.

Now please explain the mass conspiracy taking place in a country teeming with journalists and their stringers all looking for dead bodies in which no one noticed twelve times the number of dead, something like one in fifty Iraqi's dying, all mysteriously missed.

I got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn, interested?


Yes, precisely. 

My argument is that this war is similar to comparable wars (Algeria, the Congo, Timor, Bosnia, El Salvador, Vietnam, etc.) and not something entirely new and never seen before. Further, I would also add that:

1- The casualty rate reported by the Jhon's Hopkins study (0.5% fatalities per year) is absolutely typical of comparable conflicts we've seen in the past. If anything, it's a bit on the low side.

2- The casualty rate reported by secondary source aggregations (such as iraqbodycount.org and the like) comes to an absurdly low number of 0.045% fatalities per year.  You'd have to be extremely gullible, radically uninformed or both to believe that.

3- The primary reason for this disparity is that "body counting" very rarely detects even 20% of the fatalities in a large scale civil conflict.  Usually it's a lot less than that - under 10%.  That normal, well-known and fully expected phenomenon is precisely what we're seeing in Iraq.

4- Iraq is not "teeming with journalists" - far from it.  The Green Zone might be, but that's not where the fatalities happen. As for the rest of it, you've got to be kidding. 

Do you have *any* notion of what kind of escort convoy it takes to go head out to Sadr City, Sulemainiya or Fallujah and chit-chat with the family of every single shopkeeper who didnt come home from work that day?

Heart,

eu4ea
 
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