Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee

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Herodotus RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee/Herodotus Reply 11/21/2005 2:03:58 AM

>>What about all the men Saddam lost in his wars?>> Point taken, I was merely looking at the number of Iraqis he deliberately killed through democide. 7,500 Iraqi civilians and police have been killed this year alone through political violence. link link Saddam killed an average of 9,378 Iraqis per year according to HRW who are no friends of Saddam. His killing was brutal and horrendous but basically ebbed since 1991, and did not in of itself justify military intervention. I am not comparing the deliberate killings of Saddam to those being killed in the insurgency--I am just saying that in terms of numbers, there are a similar number of Iraqis dying through political violence as Saddam killed throughout the total number of years he ruled. It is less Iraqis being killed then the 1980s, but far more then the number killed in the 1990s on an AVERAGE basis. All my numbers are backed by facts, if that embarrasses you then I am sorry. Here are some more numbers: Only 42 percent of Iraqis believe their country is headed in the right direction?down from 67 percent in April. 82 percent of Iraqis want coalition troops removed from their country or are strongly opposed to their presence. 67 percent of Iraqis who feel less secure because of the occupation. 72 percent of Iraqis who do not have confidence in the coalition forces. 40 percent of Iraqis are still unemployed, and 45 percent of Iraqis believe attacks against US and British forces are justified. link link ?The average level of daily attacks across Iraq, including small-arms fire, drive-by shootings, mortar and rocket assaults and roadside bombings, continued to creep up since spring 2005, and by late September 2005 stood at about 90 a day, or 2,700 each month. ? link So just exactly how we are improving the situation in Iraq?

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Bob RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee/Herodotus Reply 11/21/2005 5:08:51 PM

>> I am not comparing the deliberate killings of Saddam to those being killed in the insurgency << Not only are you doing that, but you are also saying things like this: "America is the occupying power in Iraq recognized by the UN thus they are responsible for the security of that country under international law." and this: "Yes if the US pulls out there will be more bloodshed, but there will also be a victor." and this: "His killing was brutal and horrendous but basically ebbed since 1991, and did not in of itself justify military intervention." and then you ask this: "So just exactly how we are improving the situation in Iraq?" Amazing stuff. I'll say it again, I really wish you were saying these things to Iraqis. It's quite incredible and anyone who reads your posts has to at least for a second say to themselves "damn, just who exactly is he rooting for?"

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Pseudonym RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee/Herodotus Reply 11/22/2005 3:48:18 PM

"I'll say it again, I really wish you were saying these things to Iraqis. It's quite incredible and anyone who reads your posts has to at least for a second say to themselves "damn, just who exactly is he rooting for?"" Which is why i ignore as many of his posts as possible.

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joe6pack RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee/Herodotus Reply 11/22/2005 4:05:27 PM

"Saddam killed an average of 9,378 Iraqis per year according to HRW who are no friends of Saddam. His killing was brutal and horrendous but basically ebbed since 1991, and did not in of itself justify military intervention." So does this number include those that were just dying because his policies worked hard at denying large segments of the population things like food, medicine and the like in order to further his political goals and build new palaces? You can kill people without actually having them shot, when you run a country. "So just exactly how we are improving the situation in Iraq?" What sort of value do put on free speech, self determination, and hope?

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Pseudonym RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee/Herodotus Reply 11/22/2005 4:32:43 PM

don't waste your time joe. His agenda is anti american and he ignores what he cannot refute.

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Herodotus RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee/Herodotus Reply--Bob, 11/22/2005 6:49:54 PM

Only 42 percent of Iraqis believe their country is headed in the right direction?down from 67 percent in April. 82 percent of Iraqis want coalition troops removed from their country or are strongly opposed to their presence. 67 percent of Iraqis who feel less secure because of the occupation. 72 percent of Iraqis who do not have confidence in the coalition forces. 40 percent of Iraqis are still unemployed, and 45 percent of Iraqis believe attacks against US and British forces are justified. link link ?The average level of daily attacks across Iraq, including small-arms fire, drive-by shootings, mortar and rocket assaults and roadside bombings, continued to creep up since spring 2005, and by late September 2005 stood at about 90 a day, or 2,700 each month. ? link "So just exactly how we are improving the situation in Iraq?" "Amazing stuff." Yes it is, thanks to the incompetence of this administration. But I guess 1,200 car bombs was to be expected. par for the course and all. Hey it's a democracy after all, stuff happens. Freedom's messy right, I wonder who said that? >>I'll say it again, I really wish you were saying these things to Iraqis. It's quite incredible and anyone who reads your posts has to at least for a second say to themselves "damn, just who exactly is he rooting for?" >> Point me to an Iraqi board Bob, I think I will find more agreement there anyway. As for me not refuting any points, refute mine first and then we can discuss these things like intelligent adults.

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Bob RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee/Herodotus Reply--Bob, 11/22/2005 10:42:54 PM

>> As for me not refuting any points, refute mine first and then we can discuss these things like intelligent adults. << Please, Hero, you know damn well that I've written at least 30,000 words in response to many of your posts, jam packed with facts that've refuted what you've said, and then never heard from you again.

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Herodotus RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee 11/23/2005 11:37:00 AM

You're right Bob, Al Qaeda and Iraq were behind the 9/11 attacks. Saddam was hell-bent on destroying the US. It actually does make sense and if it were true then the Iraqi invasion is obviously justified. However I still keep seeing little nuggets in the news like this: "One of the more intriguing things that Bush was told during the briefing was that the few credible reports of contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda involved attempts by Saddam Hussein to monitor the terrorist group. Saddam viewed Al Qaeda as well as other theocratic radical Islamist organizations as a potential threat to his secular regime. At one point, analysts believed, Saddam considered infiltrating the ranks of Al Qaeda with Iraqi nationals or even Iraqi intelligence operatives to learn more about its inner workings, according to records and sources." link Hmmm, seems like there may be more then one reason that Saddam and AQ had links. But I forgot that the CIA is filled with incompetent idiots who can't find the WMD, which are obviously held in Syria. The 9/11 attacks cost 400,000 dollars. In that region of the world, that is mostly pocket change for the oil shieks. AQ and Osama did not need Saddam. If they had Saddam's money then the reality that KSM wanted--10 planes hijacked, would have happened.

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Bob RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee 11/23/2005 4:09:04 PM

>> It actually does make sense and if it were true then the Iraqi invasion is obviously justified. << Jeez then, wouldn't the past four years just make all the sense in the world? Cause you know, that's what all the neoconservatives on Sept 11th believed, and you know that people like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Libby, Wolfowitz and Perle all certainly believed Saddam was behind the attacks. >> At one point, analysts believed, Saddam considered infiltrating the ranks of Al Qaeda with Iraqi nationals or even Iraqi intelligence operatives to learn more about its inner workings, according to records and sources." << What is the date on this? Whenever it was, it makes perfect sense. While the late 1990s saw torrents of media reports touting Saddam & Osama as a match made in hell as if they were both evil geniuses or drug lords seeking to merge operations, a better picture of how it probably worked is that the IIS would infiltrate Al Qaeda and get them to attack their targets for them. *That is how state sponsored terrorism works* How was Rafik Hariri killed in Beirut? Syrian Intelligence manipulated an Iraqi suicide bomber into blowing himself up because he thought he was going to be assassinating Iyad Allawi. Boom. A perfectly orchestrated false flag, state sponsored terrorist operation. You know back before people like Khalid Sheik Muhammed (and his nephew Ramzi Yousef), and Abu Musab al Zarqawi even joined Al Qaeda, they were attacking things for Iraqi Intelligence, right? Anti-shia bombings in Pakistan and especially Iran, these were instigated by the Mukhabarat back when Zarqawi and Yousef were members of Sipah-e-Sahaba & Lashkar-e-Jhangvi in Pakistan / Baluchistan. And whether you like it or not, all the evidence in the 1993 WTC bombing points back to Iraq, through Ramzi Yousef. Hell, anyway you look at it, pre-war, post war, Abu Zarqawi is running this insurgency *for* the Baathists. In 1998 when these terrorists actually joined Bin Laden's network, their cooperation with Iraq actually created a rift between them and Osama. So you could look at that evidence as Saddam wanting to infiltrate Al Qaeda, meaning bin Laden's new Islamic Front for Jihad, from 1998 onward - despite the fact that he *already had* long standing ties to the splintered terrorist groups that merged to form Al Qaeda in 1998 at the behest of bin Laden! >> The 9/11 attacks cost 400,000 dollars. In that region of the world, that is mostly pocket change for the oil shieks. << Sure is. Too bad nobody knows just exactly where the money came from. It started flowing into the U.S very shortly after Muhammed Atta took his first trip to Prague. $400,000 that all came from an account in Dubai under the name Mustafa Ahmed. On Sept 10th, a man named Fayez Ahmed walked into the Dubai bank, withdrew the remaining funds and vanished. Nobody knows who he is. Where'd the money come from? >> AQ and Osama did not need Saddam. If they had Saddam's money then the reality that KSM wanted--10 planes hijacked, would have happened. << No no. KSM needed AQ and Osama. The question is, who needed KSM? The amount of money was never an issue, but the other question - where did it come from - still remains. Cheers.

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Herodotus RE:Al Qaeda In Iraq is going to get all Sunni's slaughtered or forced to flee 11/24/2005 1:34:54 AM

>> Whenever it was, it makes perfect sense. While the late 1990s saw torrents of media reports touting Saddam & Osama as a match made in hell as if they were both evil geniuses or drug lords seeking to merge operations, a better picture of how it probably worked is that the IIS would infiltrate Al Qaeda and get them to attack their targets for them.>> True that is a good way to look at it. Perhaps Osama was being manuiplated by Saddam and didn't even know it. That would explain why all the AQ prisoners denied there was ever a connection, they just didn't know there was one. AQ was just eager to have more people on board to fight the US, they didn't care where they were from. >>You know back before people like Khalid Sheik Muhammed (and his nephew Ramzi Yousef), and Abu Musab al Zarqawi even joined Al Qaeda, they were attacking things for Iraqi Intelligence, right? Anti-shia bombings in Pakistan and especially Iran, these were instigated by the Mukhabarat back when Zarqawi and Yousef were members of Sipah-e-Sahaba & Lashkar-e-Jhangvi in Pakistan / Baluchistan. And whether you like it or not, all the evidence in the 1993 WTC bombing points back to Iraq, through Ramzi Yousef.>> Well Saddam had the MEK to target Iran, though he also mostly used them against his own Shia. The lingering doubt I have about Yousef is that he never spent any time in Iraq, his only contact with Iraqi officals was during the 1990 occupation of Kuwait. He may have been a collaborater but how could the Iraqi IIS mark him for a future terrorist master? There were certainly more collaboraters in Kuwait and if there was a "wet" program going on in Kuwait, where the IIS was using identiies of Kuwaitis, certianly it would have come to light by now in either Kuwait or Iraq. >>Hell, anyway you look at it, pre-war, post war, Abu Zarqawi is running this insurgency *for* the Baathists.>> True he is there and is considered the leader, but it does make a big difference if it was pre-war or post-war. Post-war the Baathists would be so desperate that they would latch on to anyone to help save them. If it was pre-war however...well then the US was right to invade Iraq. >>Where'd the money come from?>> That is the million dollar question. It is possible that it came from Iraq, or Syria, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia. Certianly the account was a special account, and was catered to a specail kind of client---rich, powerful, and untraceable.

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