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Subject: Why Learning From the Lessons of Vietnam is Crucial
IlovetheUSA    9/19/2004 10:54:07 AM



Robert McNamara learned too late how off-base the United States had been in its approach to Vietnam and has some useful things to say in this regard in his valuable memoirs entitled 'In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam'. McNamara said that there were several major causes for America's disaster in Vietnam and he listed them thus: To quote his own words:

1. We misjudged then - as we have since - the geopolitical
intentions of our adversaries (North Vietnam and the Vietcong,
supported by China and the Soviet Union) and we exaggerated the
dangers to the United States of their actions.

2. We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of
our own experience. We totally misjudged the political forces
within the country.

3. We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate the
people to fight and die for their beliefs and values - and we
continue to do so today in many parts of the world.

4. Our misjudgements of friend and foe alike reflected our
profound ignorance of the history, culture and politics of the
people in the area...

5. We failed then - as we have since - to recognise the
limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces
and doctrine in confronting unconventional, highly motivated
peoples' movements. We failed as well to adapt our military
tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

6. We failed to retain popular support in part because we did not
explain fully what was happening and why we were doing what we
did.

7. We did not recognise that neither our people nor our leaders
are omniscient. Where our own security is not directly at stake,
our judgement of what is in another' people's or country's best
interest should be put to the test of open discussion in
international forums. We do not have the God-given right to
shape every nation in our own image or as we choose.

8. We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action -
other than in response to direct threats to our own security
should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational
forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the
international community.

9. We failed to recognise that in international affairs, as in
other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are
no immediate solutions. For one whose life has been dedicated to
the belief and practice of problem-solving, this is particularly
hard to admit.

10. Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organise
the top echelons of the executive branch to deal effectively with
the extraordinarily complex range of political and military
issues....

What McNamara has said about the Vietnam War holds true about the Iraq War, and it is painful. If we are to win the Iraq War, it is absolutely crucial that we do not make the same mistakes that we made in Vietnam. If one were to judge the war in Iraq by the news reports that come in daily, it would appear that the lessons of Vietnam are being largely ignored. To quote from an article entitled "Why the Military Never Learns" by Vietnam-vet, Ret. Col. David M. Hackworth:

"We have such enormous firepower and intelligence ability in terms of finding targets that right now nobody on planet Earth can go toe-to-toe with the U.S. military. No one could take us out in a conventional fight. But in Iraq, as in Vietnam, we're not fighting Soviet tank armies; we're fighting a hit-and-run opponent in a war of haves versus have-nots. And there's an important underlying similarity between jungle fighting and city fighting: Both are advantageous to the guerilla. In Vietnam we had a huge fist and we clobbered everything in sight without considering our goals. And in Iraq, as in Vietnam, we don't seem to have a well-thought-out overall strategy or meaningful objective.

Of course, we still have the big stick, and we're great at swinging it. So far we've won every tactical battle in Iraq. There's no way we can suffer a large-scale tactical defeat. But guess what? In Vietnam we won every large-scale battle and lost the war. We never figured out the nature of the war or of the enemy we were fighting. And the way we're going in Iraq, we may find ourselves faced with the same unhappy ending unless we realize we're in a knife-fight. That's where we have to be proficient.

Apart from actual fighting tactics, the key to winning a guerilla war is having the people on your side. That's the bottom line. Mao Tse-tung said the guerilla is like a fish and the people are like water. To destroy the guerilla, you must remove the water. Then the guerilla will flop up on the bank, ready to be thrown onto the barbecue. But what we're doing with our ham-fisted approach is polluting the water and firing up the fish. In Vietnam we became Ho Chi Minh's best recruiter. A gunship would fly by a village and an enemy would shoot off a few rounds; the bird would swing a 180 and retaliate by hosing down the village and killing innocent civilians. We just helped the guerillas move that village's allegiance from Saigon to Hanoi. That was their goal, and we fell for it time and time again.

I remember being in Somalia in 1992, watching a Marine Cobra helicopter come in to take out a pickup truck with a machine gun in the back--the type of target called a "technical." The gunship came in and hovered maybe 500 feet and then blew the s.hit out of it with rockets. Playing Vietnam in my mind, I thought, "You can get away with this once or twice. But these guys are going to catch on and realize that bird is an easy rocket-propelled-grenade target or one for a couple of automatic weapons. And they are going to take that sucker down." Guerillas learn. When we lost two choppers in Somalia on October 3, 1993, that's exactly how we lost them. They hovered. They got blown out of the sky. We had given the guerillas the opportunity to study our MO, and they had learned.

We rarely bother to learn, probably because we've won most of our wars in the past, except Vietnam, because of our massive power. We walk away this arrogant, muscle-bound dude, but we seldom critique the exercise. And once again that won't serve us well in this war against an agile, cunning guerilla foe. Out of necessity the guerilla is fighting a war of economy of force while we're fighting a war with an unlimited checkbook. Again, as in Vietnam, we're using the big hammer instead of the scalpel, brawn rather than brains. For example, we used a billion-dollar bomber to drop million-dollar missiles on a diner where Saddam was supposed to be breaking bread. He was eating elsewhere. How many innocent Iraqis in how many kebab shops can we blow up without losing hearts and minds and going broke? It's time to ditch shock and awe. Boots on the ground and winning trust and confidence are what count.

Another lesson not learned from past experience: When you go in, know how and when you're going to get out. In Vietnam, as in Iraq, we went in without an exit plan. President Richard Nixon and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger finally cobbled one together called "Vietnamization." They planned to replace U.S. forces with the South Vietnamese army, known as ARVN. The plan was designed to show the world that the South Vietnamese could defend themselves. In what the Nixon gang called "peace with honor," we would then leave under cover of the shield we would have helped build. And we conned ourselves into believing that shaky shield would hold. When I sounded off in Vietnam in 1971, I told the American people that Vietnamization was a big lie: ARVN was so addicted to U.S. firepower, there was no way it could stand on its own against the much superior North Vietnamese army.

I see the same thing happening with the Iraqi army. After one year and more than $1 billion in expenditures, Major General Paul Eaton, the first U.S. general in charge of training the new Iraqi army, said the Iraqis were good to go, that they were strong, powerful, well led and properly equipped. So when our Marines got into that tough fight in Fallujah last April, a battalion of the new Iraqi army was called in to reinforce them. The Iraqi troops completely fell apart. They ripped off their uniforms--many wore civilian clothes underneath--threw down their weapons and ran. This is the army that Eaton spent a year building, the army that's a major player in our exit plan.

Young Marines study Vietnam, even if the top brass seem not to: When the Iraqi troops ran, the Marine advisory team that had accompanied them said the forces "went ARVN on us."

While it looks as though the outcome in Iraq may be the same as in Vietnam, the consequences will be far more significant. After all, the North Vietnamese communists wanted only to eject the invader. Their political and military objective was to be free of foreign influence. Contrary to U.S. propaganda saying they would head for San Francisco next, the North Vietnamese had no intention of exporting their views beyond their immediate region. But if we lose in Iraq, it's not going to end in the Middle East. The Vietnam War was conjured up by LBJ, McNamara and crew, brought about by a sham attack--the Gulf of Tonkin--and, because it remained confined to Southeat Asia, in no way affected American security. This war in the Middle East is totally different. It's a global war not confined to Iraq. The objective is not just to boot us out of Iraq and Afghanistan but to impose a radical brand of Islam on the world and to destroy our way of life. By bumbling in Iraq, we have greatly eroded our ability to contain and destroy these fanatics--and they know it. Bin Laden couldn't have dreamed of a better scenario than our getting stuck in Iraq. That shell-shocked country is now his hottest recruiting ground, and our troops there have become Al Qaeda's most convenient target.

It's not uncommon in out history to have adopted the wrong strategy and tactics at the onset of a war. We've frequently gone off in the wrong direction. But in the past we've always had the kind of bold, innovative leadership that said, "Whoa, we've screwed up. We're doing this thing all wrong. I'm going to appoint Ulysses S. Grant to change things, and we're going to fight this war correctly and win." That's what we need to do now. If we don't wise up, our future and the security of our country and of the rest of the world are indeed in dire jeopardy.

Winston Churchill once said Americans always do the right thing--after they've tried everything else. While we never got it right in Vietnam, unless we're prepared to become one nation under Allah, failure is not an option in Iraq."

To tell you a bit more about Ret. Col. David M. Hackworth, he sailed in the merchant marine at age 14 and the U.S. Army at 15. In almost 26 years in the Army he spent over seven years in combat theaters, winning a battlefield commission in Korea to become that war's youngest Army captain. Hack is a regular guest on national radio and TV shows, and from 1990 to the end of 1996, he was Newsweek's contributing editor for defense. Hack is an advocate of military reform and a believer that the big fire power -- "nuke-the-pukes" -- solution won't work anymore, but that doesn't mean war will go away. He sees big and little fights ahead and urges military reform. He believes passionately that "America needs a streamlined, hard hitting force for the 21st century" and beyond.

Well, I believe the observations of these two very honorable men are accurate, important, and if their advice is listened to, will bring victory in Iraq. If their advice, and the lessons of Vietnam are ignored, I am less than optimistic about the prospests of American success in Iraq. I think it is obvious that our current strategy and tactics are not working and we must initiate a new approach to fighting this war unless we want a similar outcome to what happened in Vietnam.
 
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Ashley-the-man    RE:Why Learning From the Lessons of Vietnam is Crucial   9/19/2004 3:27:48 PM
Have we ever gotten into a war where we failed to pay attention to the concerns of our adversaries and antagogzized them to the point that they lashed out at us? The North and South had come to such an impasse by the 1850's that the South chose the route of leaving the Union and the North in it's intransigence triggered a war that cost 600,000 lives. The Japanese saw the Pacific mainland as their sphere of influence and when the U.S. threatened them by embargo and the military threat of moving our fleet to Pearl Harbor, they lashed out. The U.S. actions triggered WWII and 400,000 U.S. dead not counting over a million that we successfully killed. Since it's inception we have supported Israel against the interests of the nearby Arab countries. Solve the problem between the Israelis and the Palestinians and we solve the problem with Iraq. Trouble is that by satisfying the Arabs we give up 5 million Jews. Is that a price we are willing to pay. We can, should and are working to understand the Arab, but it has to be a two way street. We may not be able to convert Iraq to a western style democracyl, but failing to do so leaves us in no better or worse position. We spent trillions of dollars to rebuild Japan and Germany. I guess we should have considered the costs before we embarked on one of our periodic cowboy adventures. Iraq is small so should cost a bit less.
 
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terrain21u    RE:Why Learning From the Lessons of Vietnam is Crucial   9/19/2004 6:38:16 PM
I have to agree with quite a bit of the assessment. I read Bernard Fall's Street Without Joy a while back and a lot of the troubles the French encountered in Vietnam, I thought, could apply to the current situation in Iraq. So I think lessons of Vietnam from the US perspective could help to, if we studied them.
 
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sentinel28a    RE:Why Learning From the Lessons of Vietnam is Crucial   9/20/2004 5:25:36 PM
I will sound a slight note of disagreement. While I am all for remembering the lessons of Vietnam and finding a way to apply them to our current experience--not just in Iraq, but elsewhere--we have to be careful not to get entranced by the Vietnam experience. Iraq has enough differences to get us in trouble, especially the religious and tribal angle that was relatively low-key in Vietnam. Yes, there was the collision between Diem's Catholicism and the countryside's Buddhism, but primarily, Vietnam was a clash over who ruled Saigon--the RVN, or North Vietnam. I disagree with Hackworth on one thing. I'm not fit to make a pimple on Hackworth's butt, so I'll draw on Harry Summers' conclusion: Vietnam was not a failure of firepower or a failure of strategy so much as it was a failure of will. Yes, the ARVN was dependent on American firepower and equipment, but the ARVN fought well when they had both and were competently led. It was not American ground troops that stopped the NVA in 1972, but the ARVN. The same would have happened in 1975 had the US Congress not pulled the rug from under Saigon and left them friendless and alone. Even then, the NVA paid a stiff price for their victory. Had not American morale collapsed, a victory in Vietnam becomes not only possible but probable--a fact even some North Vietnamese historians agree with. *That* is one lesson from Vietnam that we can apply to Iraq: the insurgency is trying their best to make American and Iraqi nerve collapse, and they're being aided remarkably well by a media more interested in blood than news. We know now from Vietnam--some of it testimony from the correspondents themselves--how media hysteria brought about the deteoriation in American morale after Tet, which was a stunning victory for the US and South Vietnam. Finally, I would ask you to consider the source. McNamara is a self-serving SOB who is now "sorry" about his role in Vietnam. Unfortunately, he tends to forget that he figured the war lost in 1966, then went about making sure that the US *would* lose. He would rather lose the war than admit the mistake. There is no one more despised among Vietnam veterans than Robert S. McNamara, not even Ho Chi Minh--at least among the pilot community. Hackworth, while a great author and a fine man, has a personal axe to grind with the US government (understandably so) and occasionally does the Kerry thing: letting the events of 35 years ago color his view of current events. I may be wrong on this, but I also believe Hackworth left the US for England after Vietnam, abandoning the military he professes to love so much. It was not Hackworth who rebuilt the US military, but men like Schwartzkopf, Horner, and others who toughed out the disgrace of Vietnam and the lean years of Ford and Carter. If I'm confusing him with someone else, then I apologize in absentia. Just a note of warning. Tactics that worked in one war won't necessarily work in another.
 
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Final Historian    RE:Why Learning From the Lessons of Vietnam is Crucial   9/20/2004 7:11:00 PM
If you haven't noticed, the US hasn't been relying on sheer firepower in Iraq. Rather, it has been fighting an information war. Iraq and Vietnam have some similarities, but they have their differences, and recognizing both can be difficult.
 
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Ashley-the-man    Korea - Vietnam - Iraq   9/21/2004 12:08:29 PM
The argument Hackworth makes and which have been hashed over for years have kernels of truth, but it also resembles a brick of Swiss Cheese. Rarely anymore do we see comparisons drawn between Korea and Vietnam. The similarities are striking and even during the Vietnam war were recognized as such by the military leaders who recognized the impossible task politicians had placed upon them. In both conflicts, a communist government was attacking from the north with front line troops, supported logistically and politically by China and Russia and to a growing extent by segment of our own population that was pacifist and war averse. In Korea we advanced to the Chinese border and by any classical military campaign had defeated our enemy and occupied his territory. Then the Chinese came in and pushed us back to borders that were roughly the line at the time the conflict started. Protected by seas on two sides and mountainous terrain along the border, the North could not turn our flank, and the UN/US forces chose not to take on the Chinese and settle the issue. We don?t hear discussion about winning the hearts and minds of the people as the South Koreans were thankful that we were there to protect them from the North Koreans. During Vietnam the military down to the foot soldier were confident that the US could have advanced up North Vietnam to the Chinese border with about the same speed and success that McArthur achieved in Korea. The differences in the terrain that prevented this advance were evident by a casual study of a map. The western border/flank of Vietnam was not a natural impassable obstacle to the North. The US attempted to make it difficult to traverse by bombing and defoliation with some success, but at huge cost and with mixed result. An advance to the Chinese border, it was feared, would have triggered another entry by the Chinese. Nevermind that internal upheavals in China may have made such intervention less successful than in Korea. The NVN simply waited till the US grew tired of the war and mobilized several divisions to march down the middle of South Vietnam and occupy the country. End of South Vietnam. So now how do we draw comparisons to Iraq? We have occupied the country unlike in Korea and Vietnam. The contiguous countries while having a similar culture are fractured and not willing to mount an organized effort to send troops to confront Coalition forces. The leaders in Korea and Vietnam both ruled by force, but in both cases were able to rally their followers with nationalistic propaganda. The deposed leader of Iraq is in custody, but has such a small constituency that virtually no one is calling for his release. His supports are reviled by the population and not viewed in the same light as the communists that ruled Korea and Vietnam. A strong Soviet Union and China prevented our occupation of North Korea and North Vietnam. A strong Soviet Union prevented a resolution to the problems of the Middle East since WWII. Their failures in Afghanistan led to a significant degree the growth of the present Islamhist terrorist movement. The fall of the Soviet Union allowed the US to move into the Middle East and attempt to achieve some stability. Hackworth and his ilk while perhaps correct in point by point critiques, but taken as a whole they are really doing nothing more than arguing over proper placement of deck chairs on the Titanic pending the arrival of the Carpathia. In Iraq we have missed the whole iceberg, but we are still fearful of the freezing water. It remains to be seen that in attempting to steer around that iceberg in a desert mirage that we try to apply lessons from situations that don?t apply. We have been in Korea for over 50 years. I think that Iraq will show similar growth, though maybe not to the degree as has occurred in Korea.
 
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Vulture    Lesson one:   9/21/2004 12:19:50 PM
Never listen to an apologist. McNamara is a loser that is trying for Pascal's Wager (ie final atonemnt). Next Vietnam and Iraq have basic sociological differences that make any non military tactical assessments false. Thus only a purely tactical analysis is valid when comparing the two. Political and even economic comparisons have no commonality to exist. The one non military lesson , that I think applies most to Vietnam, is not to let the media say we are losing just because people are dying.
 
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terrain21u    RE:Why Learning From the Lessons of Vietnam is Crucial   9/21/2004 1:34:28 PM
I still think there is truth to alot of those statements about Iraq: 1. We have misjudged our opponents and continue to do so. At first they were just Saddam loyalists and there were no foreign radicals. Or it is not Iraqis shooting at us, it is mostly foreign fighters shooting at us. We keep not seeing that there are a number of people that don't like us for a variety of reasons. Once we stop throwing them in the same pot together we can start dealing with some of these groups. 2. We don't understand the politics of the region. We assume a liberal, non-religious democracy can be transplanted anywhere and that all politicians are a like. A close eye needs to be paid attention to what these future leaders of Iraq really want. 3. I think this can be seen in the groups that don't like the loyalists, terrorists, and fanatics, but don't like us either. How would you feel with someone else running your country? 4. Really, how many people could tell you much about the region in general and the country in particular before this all started? Even today, soldiers feel at a loss because they don't have an understanding of local customs and culture. This is something that needs to be better understood in the military and the government before we commit our troops to foreign adventures. 5. I think we have learned this one to a degree. Now the panacea is money. I think this is a warning about assuming there is one answer to all the problems you face. 6. This still remains to be seen. 7. I think this means, admit to a mistake. When you make a bad call admit it and move on. Don't excuse it as a command decision. A dumb decision is a dumb decision wether it is a command decision or not. Try to fix the problem and keep going. 8. This one I think we have to wait on, too. 9. There is a lot of truth to this one. It is as much art as it is science. 10. I'm not as familiar with this so, I won't comment on it. There are tactical elements to be looked at, too. The tactics and terrain may not be exactly the same but that doesn't mean they should not be studied. I think the ambushes we face in Iraq and the Viet Minh interdiction of roads during the French experience have a passing resemblance. What worked and why. What did not work and why? The French tried to clear "the Street without Joy" and encountered serious problems. Could some of those be applied to the guerilla war we are fighting now. Draw lessons from history and the mistakes of others. While they may not hold the answer they can sometimes provide you with an idea of what not to do.
 
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EastWind_81    Hawks tend to overestimate the ARVN   9/21/2004 2:29:46 PM
During the final drive to Saigon in early 1975, the NVA managed to capture enormous quantities of expensive US equipment from the South Vietnamese forces, which literally melted away in big numbers. The ARVN performed decently so long as it held the hope that US arms and money would shore it up indefinitely. Its resistance collapsed like a house of cards upon the US pullout. If the South Vietnamese people really valued their independence as much as US right-wingers hoped, they would've sustained a far more spirited resistance. No, I think the real lesson of Vietnam is this: radical ideologies such as Communism are far more attractive to uneducated, downtrodden third-world people than a corrupt, crony-capitalist, semi-authoritarian regime backed by a western superpower. To its credit, even SP has mentioned how big a threat corruption is to Iraq, but it glosses over just how intimately corruption is linked to the anti-US insurgency.
 
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Ashley-the-man    RE:Hawks tend to overestimate the ARVN   9/21/2004 6:03:41 PM
"No, I think the real lesson of Vietnam is this: radical ideologies such as Communism are far more attractive to uneducated, downtrodden third-world people than a corrupt, crony-capitalist, semi-authoritarian regime backed by a western superpower." Then why was the UN/US successful in Korea and not Vietnam? You are leaving out the influence of geography.
 
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terrain21u    RE:Hawks tend to overestimate the ARVN   9/21/2004 7:46:36 PM
The North Koreans and the Chinese were not fighting a guerilla war. They chose to fight a conventional war. We weren't battling for hearts and minds. We were battling for ground in Korea. That's why we were successful there and not in Vietnam. I don't think geography had that much to do with it.
 
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Ashley-the-man    RE:Hawks tend to overestimate the ARVN   9/21/2004 8:16:26 PM
"The North Koreans and the Chinese were not fighting a guerilla war. They chose to fight a conventional war. We weren't battling for hearts and minds. We were battling for ground in Korea. That's why we were successful there and not in Vietnam. I don't think geography had that much to do with it " The Viet Cong were wiped out during the Tet Offensive. After February 1968, it was NVN military units that were the only effective fighting force. The conquest of Vietnam in 1975 was due to a direct invasion from North Vietnam. The route for forces from the North the South prior to that was through the Ho Chi Min trail. Had the western border of Vietnam been sealed like in Korea, it would have been hard for the North to prevail. In Vietnam, geography was everything. Communist propaganda has survived these 40 years and is as effective at spreading disinformation as it was during the war.
 
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terrain21u    RE:Hawks tend to overestimate the ARVN   9/21/2004 9:25:50 PM
Hmmm... I'd forgotten aboout that bit. I stand corrected on the geographical element aiding the VC and NVA. I do stand by most of the rest of my statement. When the VC and NVA shifted into a more conventional conflict in the Tet Offensive they lost. They could not defeat us as a conventional force. In 1975, we weren't fighting anymore. That defeat was all the South's fight there.
 
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Ashley-the-man    RE:Hawks tend to overestimate the ARVN   9/22/2004 12:39:15 AM
"I do stand by most of the rest of my statement. When the VC and NVA shifted into a more conventional conflict in the Tet Offensive they lost. They could not defeat us as a conventional force. In 1975, we weren't fighting anymore. That defeat was all the South's fight there " The North had generals and leaders that had fought the Japanese, the French, and the Americans over a period of 20-30 years. The North Vietnamese soldier did not have the luxury of American style firepower so they evolved into one of the finest infantry armies in the world. The ARVN were modeled after the American system that relied on substiantial artillery and air support. During WWII, the German infantry was similar in that quite often they were superior tactically to the US forces they faced. Yet they lost and all you have to do is watch The Learning Channel and see from the gun cameras that whatever moved on the ground was shot up. American artillery was the best of any combatant. Where the Germans got effective use from their direct fire 88's, the US was more sophisticated in indirect fire. Blaming the ARVN for not rising to meet the invasion of the NVA in 1975 is like comparing the Italian army in North Africa to the British. When Rommel took command he found the Italian capable - when properly led by German officers. I don't imagine the S Korean army was the equal of the N Korean and Chinese that they fought. Given enough time I am sure that an invasion of a N Korean army that is even now twice the size would result in the decimation of the Communists. Of course the defender has the advantage, but the S Koreans are superior soldiers.
 
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IlovetheUSA    RE:Lesson one:   9/22/2004 5:13:01 AM
"Never listen to an apologist. McNamara is a loser that is trying for Pascal's Wager (ie final atone