Scholar, man, you gotta let some things go, you know. RP is just mocking the situation. Maybe that isn't smart, but exhibit some fire discipline will ya? We should just let this whole thing drop. No more posting on gender please(not even in jest)!

On Watch can really get my hackles up too, but one redeeming value he has is to call people on their implicit assumptions. While the rest of us would be trying to politely say how someone's assertions are full of Bovine Scatology, he's already got a Massive Retaliatory Strike in bound on target. Some bombs are just personal attacks, but a few hit home in the critical sectors of "put up or shut up" / prove your assertions, etc An enlighted Feminist should not resort to male-bashing stereotyping language, unless one conceeds up front that hormones flow in XX as well as XY. (In which case, bash away!) I'll go first: human beings are subject to the strong influence of personal chemistry. What may be feel like strongly held beliefs may just be vague assumptions backed up by emotion enhancing hormonal response. So, stay cool, human. What do people think of "Jihad" as a non violent inner struggle against one's own limitations? I can buy into that..

>>What do people think of "Jihad" as a non violent inner struggle against one's own limitations? I can buy into that.<< I think it's pap. Remember, we're all born "Muslims." Most of us grow up.

>What do people think of "Jihad" as a non violent inner struggle against one's own limitations? I can buy into that. < Right. And as far as I'm concerned, a crusade is a determined action in pursuit of a just cause. What's good for the goose...

With or without overdosing on testosterone. Or letting "that time of the month" color our discussion as well? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You guys crack me up, you really do :)) Of course our respective endocrine systems can colour any discussion: it's just that guys suffer less flack for it - even though they are cyclic beings as well. I never blame my hormones though, for being a bitch, or for being wrong, which I can be regardless of the sacred cycle of the moon and womb. However, if I hang out here too much, maybe I'll start growing hair on my chest and picking fights in bars. This place is putting me in touch with my masculine side (ok, I'm sorry Chemist, I'm sorry). Oh, and I'm not really a feminist, not in sense you think anyway. I can take ribbing, but not abuse - ok? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What do people think of "Jihad" as a non violent inner struggle against one's own limitations? I can buy into that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting point, Realpolitik. And one which is shared by certain Islamic schools of thought. I remember once having a discussion with a muslim cleric about the jihad business - he said that the prophet (pbuh) meant that jihad must be waged in the soul - it is the fight between good and evil that cuts across the soul of each human being. Naturally, he did not share the islamist extremists view of jihad. There is also a hadith somewhere (hadiths are like supplimentary religious writings, sayings and proverbs) which says that to oppose a dictator is one of the nobelist forms of jihad. I'll try and find the source. But of course this points to one salient fact no group has a monopoly on righteousness. The real moral battle - against our limitations, our prejudices, our hates, fears etc cuts right across the heart of each individual. We all have the potential for evil. And who would destroy evil in their own hearts? Uchiita

Guys, I'm sorry, I'm having a really dyslexic day today. My spelling is off the wall. Take care - Uch

(Side Note: I am new (this is my first post) to this board, so forgive me if I don't do things to the board's custom ways, but I have been following the board for over a month and I will learn fast. Also, forgive me for my grammar and spelling. It definitely sucks.) When all muslim countries start to clean up their own houses the Americans will start respecting them. Pre-9/11 and a year or two after 9/11 majority of the Muslim counties weren't doing any housing cleaning. Lucky, a few countries (Pakistan and Malaysia are a few examples) are starting to and they are gaining our respect believe it or not. By the phase of "cleaning their own houses" I mean getting their extreme elements under control. America tries to keep it's radicals who are in deep in the woods in midwest on a tight leash and won't let them get out of their boundaries. The same goes for other radical groups such as KKK, ELF, and other off of the wall religous groups (Waco, Texas stand off comes to my mind for an example). Most Americans know that most Muslims are not evil people and very kind to be with. But we want to see some action taken by the peace loving Muslims to clamp down on their radicals. Americans are tired of hearing "We Muslims are not really like that, so don't group us together" excuse. To us that is just an excuse for inaction. The true disrespect on islam is coming from radical clerics and madrassas. They are the ones that giving you a blackeye even though islam doesn't deserve it. Let me ask some Muslims on this board, would America gain some respect among the Islamic communities if our foreign aid is increased to help to replace the madrassas with more government controlled public schools? Or will it fuel the the "USA is trying to control us" resentment? If my statements above offends anyone, let me know. It wasn't my intention to and i will try to rephase my statements.

OK, RP, truce. A devout Muslim friend (whom I havn't seen in years...hope she's ok) once defined jihad for me. I wish I can remember the words, but it was a beautiful concept, one that any of us with religions that have a pietist streak can recognized and respect. I've often thought that we need to rethink the "problem." It's not Islam, it's the political culture of Islamic countries. Most of them, at any rate. So what's that? Brush off your Tocqueville and think about all the things he says makes American democracy work: shared notions about how governments and states should work, its role in our lives, our own liberties, shared political practices, and of course good old stuff like seperation of church and state and a free press. In brief, liberalism as both a doctrines and a way of life. By that I mean the idea that we form countless little clubs and institutions, we petition, we protest, we lobby, etc., etc., all as a matter of course. Islamic countries aren't alone in having a crap political culture; many African countries do, too, although perhaps for different reasons. Bush's doctrine (the neo-con position) admirably argues that we can accelerate the development of Arab political culture through, well, heavy intervention. I am really unconvinced that it's at all possible.

To me it seems many muslim nations are stuck in the middle ages when it comes to politics. Tribal warlords and tribal law. I believe that most muslims are indeed good people, but its the rest that are giving islam a very bad name. Look at alot of the stuff going on around the world and islamic militants are behind it. Violent stuff. Religion is a very powerful thing and if used right you control alot of people. I think that it is time for muslims to wake up and start fixing the problems that lead to this militancy.