Once more into the breech: I will ignore the bits were I think we agreeor agree to disagree... "This where Cocoonboy shows his ignorance (despite his claims to be an recent expert on Islam). There is no central leadership of Islamdom- there is no established church- so there is practical problem of who or what is going issue a ?collective condemnation of terrorism?. Having said that there are many Muslims who have condemned terrorism repeatedly." -How is this different than Christendom during the Reconquista?" It is very different. The Pope could excommunicate Kings, bring Bishops to heal, Henry II one most powerful kings of Europe ruler of England and Half of France-stood barefoot in hairshirt on xmas begging the pope pardon. Both Latin Christendom and Orthodox Christians were hiearchal organization with clear chains of command - this certainly the case unitl the reformation. Even now the Pope appoints higher church officals through the world- there is no equivalent in Islam. Besides as said Muslims have condemned terrorism. "You would have to agree that 'the Christian World' or the Judea-Christian tradition peoples have enmasse voiced a unified position on something like, say, slavery." The French Revolutionaries banned slavery sometime in 1789-90s. Napoleon re-instated. The British banned it 1836 and enforced the ban with their naval power. The USA did not ban slavery unitl 1864. Brazil 1884(?). I do not see how you can say there is unified christian postion since it takes almost a 100 years. This of course, after the transition from CHristiandom to Europe. When the Pope announced the Cruasades 100,000 answered his call- because the Pope had a centralized network - something Islamdom does not have. "-There is a decentralized nature to the hierarchy of Islam, which I find somewhat akin to the Orthdox Church. Yet, the Orthodox Church, RC, and the many forms of Protestantism can still get together and make pronouncements about what it means to be Christian. What impediment is there within the many sets of Islam that prevent this, beyond Zarqawi and the guys who founded sects lke Wahhabi?" Because the there is no established church - think of it more like American accademy where once you get tenure - you more or less free to do or say what you want. Having said IOC has issued resolutions condemning terrorism. The dificult of course is that terrorism is polemical term- and no one defination of terrorism is going to be accedptible to all. Iran's condemention of terrrorism includes Mujadeen-e-Khalq and Israel- Russians want to call chechens terrorist but what they did to Grozny legitimate. How many people on SP would call the contras terrorsts? The key element of the Islam saved western civ argument is that the return of Western, largely Greek, knowledge to western empires after the fall of Moorish Spain lands to Ferdinand and Isabella started a rebirth of Western science and intellectualism. Essentually, Islam was the care taker of of it since it would've been lost or destroyed without them. That concept is false I agree that concept is false- but I do not see the role of Muslims as postal workers or caretakers for western civilization. "The work of Galen hadn't been forgotten in Byzantium or in the Brit Isles. The knowledge of things like Galen was still being circulated amoungst the edges of the old Roman Empire and was still existant at its heart(Rome, geez, I'm surprised nobody has brought up the Vatican Archives yet. Immense and antique, and largely unknown to those of us(including myself) outside RC inner circles.). Remember I'm arguing against the position of 'give them credit, they saved all this knowledge from your wars'. I do not think Muslims need people on SP to give them credit or whatever. My intervention arose simply because someone had written Islamicate culture had produced nothing except weapons. That I think is totally false. (If someone had said that Soviets lost the battle of Kursk- I might have I tried to suggest that was not the case.) It seems it opened a can of worms- in which people based on often little more than prejudice entered what pycho-analysts call denial. "Not to dengirate Islam and Moslems, but just to try and get things straight." Agreed. Even Sarge, Cocoon is hopeless(lol), would say that Moslems shouldn't be bombed into the stone age for simply being. But he wouldn't couch his argument against it in 'they were/are a great culture'. No, instead he'd note that they're human beings and as such don't deserve to die so long as they don't make themselves violent threats(we can all tolerate economic threats, Japan was buying American real estate pretty quickly back in the early 80's). Even Cocoon would go along with this I'm sure. He's Andrew 'Dice' Clay half the time(ohhhhhhh!), but he's not unhinged. You know Cocoonboy better than I. Like I keep saying if the United States considers itself to be at war with Islam - t

"but you cannot defend that Americans stole all of Mediterranean from Islam." Sheikh Salaam, the Mediterranean was out of Muslim control a couple of centuries before the American expedition to Tripoli. Should I remind you Lepanto?. "If not for Muslims, Christofer Columbus would not find America on Thanksgiving Day. He would be lost at sea looking for dragons." That's great. 1) Columbus arrived to the Americas on October 12, 1492 2) Our American posters will explain better than me where Thanksgiving day is coming from. Anyhow, if you want to do some homework: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/tgturkey1.html 3) The decissive Muslim contribution to Columbus' expedition was to surrender Granada to Ferdinand&Isabella on January 2, 1492. That allowed them to redirect resources to fund Columbus' expedition in due time. What do you mean when you refer to "dragoons"?. 4) Doesn't "Halal" mean "permissible"?. Tercio

I did not invent metallurgy. Why would Allah command that molten lead be pour in infidel ears as a punishment if Muslims did not melt lead or know to. There is no maiming or murder. Infidels choose Allah or the burning. It is by choice and we respect that.

>>Americans stole all of Mediterranean from Islam. If not for Muslims, Christofer Columbus would not find America on Thanksgiving Day. He would be lost at sea looking for dragons. --Salamay<< Hold the cellphone Mohammad! Everyone knows the USN owns the 7 Seas, including the Med! And when Ships company has Liberty, they OWN the Beach too! As for Columbus, he was a 'Johnny come lately' to the USA, The Vikings were here long before Christoforo escaped from Genoa, absconding with Erik the Reds old Nav charts - the ones on which he scribbled "Thar be Dragons" ! The dumb ol' squarehead had one too many at the 'Vineland Mead Hall'! Went out to a snowbank to take a leak and confused a herd of Mastadons for Dragons! And the rest is just water over the roof', as Teddy Kennedy, one of the original Massachewsh!ts turkey's might say! Respect Islam? BurrrrrrrpFarrrrrrrrrrrttSpit, yeah right! On Watch Let's Roll

I am real of course you think post typed by no hand? I have dificulties with English text typed backward but it is halal for infidels to see the jazeera but for Muslims it is not permisible. Television cannot have music or images and jazeera does these things. But I warn that Qatari speaks through jazeera so you know what Qatari says but not always what truth happens. And Qatari allied with the Americans so when Muslims watch jazeera they see the trick of Americans trying to incite the warfare but no one listens but the foolish and greedy. And Al Qaeda is not real except in Hollywood script real Qaeda never existed except on paper Mukhabarat laughs at joke played on America. Except for the miscalculation that Qusay and Uday made all is as planned.

Tercio you are offinsive you say Mediterranean lost at Lepanto but that was Ionian Ocean and the Don Quixote lied about this battle because Muslim ships did not have windmills.

you do not know that Muslims invented salami but you must know is it good for infidels to eat but they do and this is offinsive for Muslims that infidels steal so much and do not return. Yes I know the seven seas are not ruled by Islam but they once were and this is now international waters just like Tripoli sank Americans that dared cross the boundaries and had to pay from the damage they did when the presure came from Europe. Always has America warred with them to break the treaties that the Europe infidel kingdoms made to pass the waters for a toll. America betrays all when it pleases like a harlot.

>>Mukhabarat laughs at joke played on America. Except for the miscalculation that Qusay and Uday made all is as planned. Shiek rattle & roll << OH yea OH Yea! I'm sure the Rakki Mukitty Muks are really tickled by all the JDAMS we've inserted in their back pockets! Their Daddy Saddam is having a blast too, wearing his flea collar and listening to Billy Graham Tapes 24/7! At least until we decide to feed him to the Kurds! Ha Ha Ha Ha, who's laughing :~) On Watch, Let's Roll

You make fun to laugh at Saddam I laugh too. Saddam was an infidel did you know he had chemical weapons he used on Muslims instead of infidels and Jews?

Apparently Moslems need to respect Islam... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/03/iraq.main/index.html Perhaps the Iron Sheikh can explain why moslem terrorists are blowing up mosques, as well as fighting from them, hiding weapons in them, etc., etc., etc. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." SC-.