This is old news and not too hard to find. It is true both principles were trained in the US military. But one of them also made trips (plural) without his Filipino wife to be trained in the Philippines. We know what that training was, and unlike the US military training, it included how to make a bomb of the sort used, and how to self finance the materials to make it. There are other materials captured from AQ suggesting that this is SOP. Recruit people of the target country to do intel and to do attacks. Use whatever it takes to motivate THEM - thus it may be a radical right wing Christian is acceptable if manipulable for AQ ends. There were a lot of US right wing people very upset with the Waco affair - but no one else did something like OK city. It is hard for me to grasp just why such an act helps anyone? But if you are radical enough, reason may not be the criteria that matters. And if you are radical enough, you can be manipulated. AQ simply adds training and direction to the mix, making these home grown radicals much more dangerous. It is not dumb, it is efficient. And you should expect more of this, worldwide. There is quite a bit already in SE Asia.

SWB your database may be skewed. You seem to have an anti-Islamic bias, so maybe it is what you look for? If you look at lists in places like Japan or the Philippines, or Western Europe, while there are Islamic organizations on the list, they are by no means the vast majority as you suggest. Somehow you are missing organizations like the Red Brigade. In our own country, many terrorist organization have been delisted, since the fall of the Soviet Union, but I have no clue why? Those that still exist didn't change their nature, nor convert to Islam.

Islan has one real regional power - Iran - and possibly two - if Egypt counts. Iran could become a great power. I think there is a potential Muslim "great power" - if it survives as a country. That is Indonesia. The world's most populous Muslim nation, it is the third most populated nation on the planet, and it might become second in this century. It has suffered colonial rule and post colonial regimes that were very disfunctional, so it is not a great power now. But it has the position, the population and the resources to be a great power, and it is on the road to democratic reform. Given time the Islamic world will have its great power. I do not agree that Islamic nations has no role in the present world. I am as unhappy about it as you are, but the Saudi princes have a substantial role, and one not entirely unrelated to the OBL problem either. But more than this, Islamic nations have lots of roles in the world that really matter - one is even a nuclear power. The view that Islamic nations are completely outside the world order is extreme enough to be false: they trade, they participate in the intelligence war, the yparticpate in military campaings, they participate in the postal union, the list is endless. It may be worth considering why the particular lot of many Muslims in third world countries is such they find OBL et al attractive. It may be worth advocating policy changes - such as addressing the Palestinian issue in a meaningful (vice just politically correct) way. That would mean actually solving the problem, not pretending it is solved. Surely it involves being seen to treat Muslims with respect - which is supposed to be the subject of this thread.

...SWB your database may be skewed. You seem to have an anti-Islamic bias, so maybe it is what you look for? If you look at lists in places like Japan or the Philippines, or Western Europe, while there are Islamic organizations on the list, they are by no means the vast majority as you suggest. Somehow you are missing organizations like the Red Brigade... Not skewed as far as I can tell - I have many of the former European terror organizations - IRA, Rota brigada, baader meinhof, etc. , columbia, shining path etc. on this list - and many of the white supremacist groups in the United States and Mmexican nationalist ones as well - so both active and inactive are represented. It becomes skewed pnly in th e sense that the most active organizations are primarily muslim, as would be their memberships. Since i go thru about 20 papers a day from all over the world as part of my job, I am in a good position to see whats going on in europe and south america, as well as the the muslim world. Bottom line - most of the current orgs ARE islamic. swhitebull

Lets roll.

Watch the clerics. This is not just terror like the IRA. This is a "holy war". YOu can not compare apples to oranges here. These guys train the kids from teh first light they see that we are evil that Mohamad wants us dead and they will be rewarded. Watch the clerics. They are participating from conception.

"This is old news and not too hard to find. It is true both principles were trained in the US military. But one of them also made trips (plural) without his Filipino wife to be trained in the Philippines." I believe you are refering to Nichols. But McVeigh was the real mover behind the insanity. That does not make them tools of AQ. Possibly or even probably collaboration, but skinheads gangs and black muslim gangs can collaborate against latino gangs, or anyone else (like prison authority). Also, Nichols going to the Philippines without his pilippina wife might well have had ulterior motives besides terrorist training. My wife won't let me go without her because she's smarter than Nichols wife about what tempts men. And it ain't a bunch of hairy muslim guys. On another note, why no feedback on my "perfect storm" points. That is what I'm really doing here, looking for some rational desicussion on the disturbing future trends I see coming down the pike.

>Lets roll< Thanks anyway, but I'd prefer something in an action mode that doesn't fly us into the ground at 600 knots.

property values wil never decline on an overall, national level. never.ever.never.evernever. maybe locally, once in a blue moon.

while we're off topic. i have new thread overload. make it omegagone.