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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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sorkoi2003    RE:Political Nature of AQ   9/20/2004 11:01:03 AM
"i would argue that when you specifically target civilians for greater effect, then politically, you're not very rational or understanding." OK if you believe that to be case (and seems to be a strong point) than you condemn as irrational instances such as: 1. Gasing as the Kurds by the British 2. German Blitz on British cities 3. Nuking of Hiroshima and Nagaski 4. Allied bombing strategies of firestorming cities. 5. U.S campaigns against the plains Indians... If you were willing to do that fine. Unfortunately, there is tendency to consdier what our enemies did to be irrational and what we do to be justified and rational. I am not sure rationality means much more than ideas that we find consistent with our views...
 
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PlatypusMaximus    RE:Political Nature of AQ   9/20/2004 11:48:23 AM
"Unfortunately, there is tendency to consdier what our enemies did to be irrational and what we do to be justified and rational. I am not sure rationality means much more than ideas that we find consistent with our views... " i can't argue with that... especially when i have your posts to back it up.
 
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rbrooku    RE:Truth in Advertising   9/20/2004 12:41:48 PM
"A prominent Arab columnist decries the fact that while it is obvious that all Muslims are not terrorists, it is sadly apparent that these days nearly all terrorists happen to be Muslims" That idea wouldn't fly in Sri Lanka, mid and southern Africa, or Oklahoma City for that matter. The Muslim world is suffering the after effects of colonialism and has lots of oil derived money in the hands of religious fanatics. So, it gets lots more pr driven terror acts and thus press, as well as encompassing a lot more people than the other areas I mentioned.
 
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rbrooku    RE:Paranoid fantasies   9/20/2004 12:45:12 PM
"Abu Suyyaf trained one of the principles for OK city in how to make bombs and how to self finance." Nichols or McVeigh? Please elaborate, as I was under the imperssion that McVeigh got his training in the U.S. Army.
 
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swhitebull    RE:Truth in Advertising   9/20/2004 12:45:58 PM
...That idea wouldn't fly in Sri Lanka, mid and southern Africa, or Oklahoma City for that matter. The Muslim world is suffering the after effects of colonialism and has lots of oil derived money in the hands of religious fanatics. So, it gets lots more pr driven terror acts and thus press, as well as encompassing a lot more people than the other areas I mentioned ... Sorry to differ with you, but the facts just dont bear you out. I maintain a database on international terrorist organizations, and of the 600 or so entries, a full 75% are either arabic or islamic in nature. By known membership, this increases to 85%, with over 1200 identified and dossiered entries. My sources are culled from news organization s thruout the world, and other contacts. If you can show me that I am wrong, pease feel free. As regards to Oklahoma City, thre is extensive documented evidence that both AQ and the Iraqis were involved to some extent - again, posted below. swhitebull
 
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swhitebull    RE:Paranoid fantasies   9/20/2004 12:50:58 PM
.."Abu Suyyaf trained one of the principles for OK city in how to make bombs and how to self finance." Nichols or McVeigh? Please elaborate, as I was under the imperssion that McVeigh got his training in the U.S. Army ... You ask, we deliver. From my earlier citations on this thread. It's worth reading EVERYONE of them, especially the Jayna Davis interview with FrontPage, and getting her book. It lays out an extremely compelling case on McVeighs and Nichols time in the Philippines with abu Sayyaf (one of my aforementioned groups in my terrorist database, extrensively dossiered btw), and their time being "turned" by AQ, plus the Iraqi secret intel involvement. I had written here: "Actually, there is a LOT of cirmcumstantial evidence tht suggests the both AQ and the iraqis were behind the bombings in OK. You havent read our other threads on this, but here you go: http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/35-32545.asp http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/35-32560.asp http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/1678779 http://www.townhall.com/columnists/frankjgaffneyjr/fg20021119.shtml And an interview with the author: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14904." swhitebull - not paranoid conspiracy, but good indepth investigative reporting, UNLIKE CBS.
 
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rbrooku    RE:I have no doubt ... declaration   9/20/2004 1:11:00 PM
"I am not sure that sedition trials are a good idea? But I AM sure that PUBLIC disagreement with wartime policy is a BAD idea." There is some point to that idea. However, if the war time policy is very faulty, then that idea itself is a bad idea. A perfect storm of political, economic and military problems may be brewing. Most Americans can not entertain the idea that even America is mortal, and we may be pushing our luck. Here are some trends to consider. 1. The national debt is growing so large so fast that foreign lendors are beginning to consider other safe havens for there money. 2. The U.S. economy is largely dependent on consumer spending, which is largely bolstered by rising home values. The combination of rising interest rates and a stagnant or shrinking economy would cause home values to sink. 3. The U.S. military preimmince is depenendent on vast amounts of funding. 4. The "baby boom" generation (the largest segment of the U.S, population) retirement will be in full swing in ten years. 4. The demand for oil is projected to significantly outstrip supply (really for the first time) in ten years. 5. China has all but declared the intention to reunify Taiwan, by agreement or force, in ten years. 6. The Iraq "situation" is now being considerd, by much of the intelligence community as well as many Iraqis, to last for another ten years. So, in a decade or so on our present course, we may be forced by circumstances to jettison some allies, maybe even Taiwan and Israel. "Better them than us" is an all too human response to severe circumstances. For America, we have a history of doing that, from our very first foreign intervention to very recent times. In fact, it's who we are and what we do. Put another way, "There's no point in paying attention to history, since it repeats itself anyway."
 
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sorkoi2003    RE: Truth, terrorism and advertising   9/20/2004 2:35:49 PM
I would agree with bull that the majority of 'terrorist' activities emanate from Islamdom (we can quibble about how complete bull's database, how the various newspaper determine what counts as 'terrorism' etc) but I do not think it matter if its 75% or 85%. The important question is why. There are number of answers: 1. It is due to prepensity for violence among Arabs. 2. It is due to something intrinic to Islam 3. It is due to something do with mixing of religion and politics 4. Rejection of enligtenment values 5. Absence of democratic culture in the Muslim world. Argument 1 is basically racist and vunerable to criticism of all racist arguments (location of the biological mechanism to explain a particular behaviour). Arguement 2 Is a culturalist variant of Argument 1. It specifies an essence to Islam which cannot be sustained over the longue duree. Arguement 3 is based on extrapolation from European history (the wars of religion) and does not allow for the fact that what is meant by religion and specific relationship to politics is not reducible to experiences of western christianity at specific periods. Arguement 4 is based on dis-awowing the possiblity of violecne within the enligtenement e.g Jacobins, bolsheviks etc- so not clear why a rejection or and endorsement of enlightement values would have impact on regulating violence. Arguement 5 is very popular currently, but agian based on denial of the violence of democratic cultures. Certainly being a democracy has not prevented countries from going to war. However, argument 5 does have a point in that throughout Islamdom government tend to be unreprentative and will brook little or know oppositon- as consequence forcing their opponent to take up arms since other avenues are closed. For what is worth I think argument 5 is closer to explaining the phenomena- but there is another dimension needs to be factored and that is that Muslims have no voice in the world order- There is no Muslim Great Power which can either speak on behalf of Muslims and give them a stake in current world order. (This argument is similar to the Zionist argument regarding the necessity of a Jewish state to safe-guard and represent Jews through-out the world). Russia, India, China and by proxy the US and the EU all face the problem of dealing with large Muslim populations- without any institutional mechanism for doing so- in the absence of these intitutional mechanism they often deal with corrupt and illegitimate leaders of the Muslim world- who rely upon support from the international community to defer any democratization- which radicalizes the sitution... I think in the current sitution the use of term 'terrorist' and Muslim is becoming synonmous- but I would argue that such a conflation is diplacement of the political nature of the problem to other domains so that Putin use the blood of chenchens to establish a dictatorship in russia, so that India continue to deny right of self-determination to Kashmiris, so that Israel and continue to repress the Palestinian people, so that the Algerian juanta can justify its 'dirty war', so Mubarak can enrich himself and his family, so that Saudis can continue to deffer any right to the people they rule, so Musharraf can present his dictatorship as responsible government, so that Baath in Syria can pretend they are not a monarchy in name, so that threat of global terror erode the civil liberities that make America special... of course, I could be wrong government never lie, cheat or mis-use power for their own ends- do they.
 
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serpentx777    RE:Americans must respect Islam   9/20/2004 4:49:04 PM
 
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chemist    One word for Sorkoi   9/20/2004 5:50:14 PM
Dodge. That's what you're doing is called..
 
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