IF you really are concerned about national security, you ought to consider the views of our leaders in this war. THEY say we need to respect Islam. I have yet to see a single person explain why this unpatriotic idea that actually hurts national security is a good one? Why is our President wrong? Why am I wrong to support him. [And for the record, I privately advised against going to war. It is only since the decision was made I stood behind his policy. I preferred to go to war with Korea, and I am worried we might have trouble getting enough troops to support Taiwan, with so many in Afghanistan and Iraq. But I don't oppose a national security policy during a war. Only those NOT interested in US national security do that.]

You are indeed correct about mainstream Islamic teaching in many denominations. However, you are debating with someone who refuses to accept the truth - and wouldn't believe it if you showed it to him in a book or could get him to listen to a class. He will find someway to say you are wrong, or lieing, or possibly both at the same time! He is as radical as the CCP trolls we have on the China board. Because honest posters allow evidence to modify their views. Those who still say all Islam is wrong and evil are ignoring the evidence - and they will turn on you as a way to justify not believing you - even though you write the truth.

Thanks for the qualified language Jim - although you might be wrong still. We might learn more about the rest if we take a few prisoners.

"I remember some weeks back you were all for Muslims speaking out against various kinds of bad regimes in the Arab world. Why exactly are you so upset to learn it is happening? " Because it's NOT happening...at least, not where it matters, and not on a scale that will bring about the required changes in time to choke off the ugly head of terror that is staring us all in the face. I am glad that some Muslims are taking responsibility for those who abuse their religion in their name (heck, the group I mentioned has done exactly what I have always said Muslims need to do -- I even sent them a PayPal donation and an encouraging email), but frankly a few statements by some Muslims here in the US or at a conference in Iraq is not gonna achieve squat. Major changes have to be made, and these changes have to be made in the Mid-East. -Significant- numbers of Muslims there have to get darn mad at these horrid excuses for human beings hiding behind their religion, get active against them, and reject the teachings of hate against the Jews, the West, and blaming everyone else but themselves for any ills they may perceive. Islamic extremist-based terrorism does not exist in a vacumn...it has to have a degree of support, either actively or passively, to exist and keep alive. NewGuy

Mansoor Ijaz has an OpEd piece pertinent to this thread http://www.nationalreview.com/ijaz/ijaz200409101000.asp snippet: We Muslims (I am an American whose faith remains that of the humane and dignified Islam) have no legs to stand on anymore when those who proclaim our religion are willing to put a gun to a child's head, pull the trigger, and call it an act of martyrdom. Islam no longer carries a message of hope, only the indelible impressions of cruelty. Its purveyors are bankrupt of ideas that inspire, and have failed in an ideology that in its very heart today has become hypocritical. To top it all off, America's Muslims — whose freedom to craft and convey an opposition to the terrorist cancer is protected by the very people those terrorists seek to destroy, sit silent — stone cold silent. Islam's "vanguard," as Zawahiri called it, has an opportunity to redefine the message and turn away from the extremists. America will win the war against extremism because America's values are righteous, and because God, whatever you conceive Him to be, is at our side. But Islam will surely lose its credibility as a great religion if its benefactors don't stand now and drive the final nail into the coffin of the terrorists who have hijacked a noble faith. .

am i crazy for thinking i saw mansoor on fox, during the war, performing surgery on some iraqis? now i can finally start my list of muslims who have told me murder is not a form of religious expression. i stand corrected. 1.

From: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27216 "Muslim cleric calls for death of Arafat Says Israel should continue offensive until he's executed" " WND TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND Muslim cleric calls for death of Arafat Says Israel should continue offensive until he's executed Posted: April 13, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Jon Dougherty © 2002 WorldNetDaily.com A noted Italian Muslim leader and regional expert has called on Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to continue his military campaign against Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat until the latter is "executed or jailed." "Sheikh [Prof. Abdul Hadi] Palazzi asks Prime Minister Sharon not to stop the military operation against the boss of terror, until the day when the Egyptian criminal Abdel Ra'uf al-Kobdah [aka Yasser Arafat]" is neutralized for good. Palazzi, who is secretary-general of the Italian Muslim Association, also said he approved of Sharon's decision to "destroy the centers of the Arafatian terror in Israel" and accused the Palestinian Authority chairman of inciting "more than 30 years of barbarian and indiscriminate terror." " The guy also issued a fatwa against Arafat. So technically you could now become a Muslim and kill Arafat in the name of Islam.

"but be careful" Sticks and stones. All I'm interested in is seeing who has reasonable powers of analysis and dispassion. The rest is just demagougery and passion. And, if you remember the original meaning of passion, it ain't me gettin' hurt.

<> Hellfire, I think you need to realize a distinction. Jesus certainly preached about and lived a life of radical love and forgiveness. This does not necessarily tranlate to pacifism as a government policy, and it does not preclude the use of violence (witness the violence He used in the cleansing of the Temple). When soldiers of Herod asked John the Baptist how they should live a righteous life, he told them to be content with their wages and not to extort money from the populace. He did not tell them to become pacifists. The first gentile convert to the Christian faith was a Roman Centurian; a professional, long service soldier. No mention is made of his becomming a pacifist. God bless...

Policy ought not be decided by irrational emotional outbursts. Particularly false ones. We have enough of a problem defeating our real enemies - whom I believe are an alliance of Islamic radicals and ex-communists who wish to (a) get paid again and (b) see us get hurt. This is a dangerous enough enemy: there is no good reason to drive between one and two billion people into their camp - and compelling reasons not to. In any case, the position of ORCA - and I quote "the true goal of ISLAM : TO DESTROY AMERICA" - is unpatriotic and explicitly contradictory of President Bush's oft repeated "Islam is not our enemy." To oppose official policy in wartime used to be a felony - and I think it should be still. I am as offended by ORCA as by all those Seattlites who used to harass anyone who supported the war effort (on shallow leftist grounds that fail to consider what defeat means - to them).