Americans must respect Islam, Americans must be senstive, Americans must do this or that. Bullsit, I have a son in (going) to Iraq. Islam must fear and be senstive to us. I believe in the golden rule (Do unto others as they would do unto you, only do it first) If its the olive branch great. If not send them to hell.

There's another golden rule about hearts and minds,WHEN YOU'VE GOT THEM BY THE BALLS,THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS TEND TO FOLLOW.

To believe in all the bull in the bible, quran or whatever, you need to have a mental disorder.. There was a tribe in the amazonia which believed that god was the the moon.. I'm sure THEY were right.. What load of crap...

That's all very well, despite your crude way of putting it. However modern Americans aren't capable of using that method anymore, anymore than other westerners. We just may be yet, I hope not. So until someone figures out how to bring back Curtis LeMay in a time machine, we have to use hearts & minds. The cynical side of me believes that most of the people of the world have few serious political beliefs and prefer to get on with serious matters like living. They join nasty people when it is convenient. Sort of like the coffin maker in Godfather II who found the law unsatisfactory and said "Don Corelone, give me justice" An image many statesmen would do well to remember. The obvious corralary to this is that the side that succeeds best at giving the population what they want, prosperity, security, and a reasonable sense of dignity. Should win. In this war I don't think anyone will win in the traditional sense. I think it will simply die down. In which case we will still be here. Therefore we will have "won". As I said before the purpose of war is to get your way. "Our way" is to continue existing with a reasonable ammount of safety.

That's all very well, despite your crude way of putting it. However modern Americans aren't capable of using that method anymore, anymore than other westerners. We just may be yet, I hope not. So until someone figures out how to bring back Curtis LeMay in a time machine, we have to use hearts & minds. The cynical side of me believes that most of the people of the world have few serious political beliefs and prefer to get on with serious matters like living. They join nasty people when it is convenient. Sort of like the coffin maker in Godfather II who found the law unsatisfactory and said "Don Corelone, give me justice" An image many statesmen would do well to remember. The obvious corralary to this is that the side that succeeds best at giving the population what they want, prosperity, security, and a reasonable sense of dignity. Should win. In this war I don't think anyone will win in the traditional sense. I think it will simply die down. In which case we will still be here. Therefore we will have "won". As I said before the purpose of war is to get your way. "Our way" is to continue existing with a reasonable ammount of safety. Previous Comment ------------------------------------------------- Actually the method I think would be best for us, and which we will probably end up settleing for is the "acceptable level of violence" method. Accept that war will always be with us and concentrate on containing it as much as possible. Essentially what the NYPD does with crime. It is irrational to accept internal crimanals as a constant, and make crusades to destroy external ones, who will be soon replaced even if we succeed. It is common among large powers that they always have to deal with war on the borders of their sphere of influence. It will likly cost fewer lives if we accept this and evolve a strategy to deal with it. As long as few citizens are harmed and few vital interests threatened we have won. Does that mean call off the "war on terror". No. In the first place if 9-11 is not properly avenged we shall regret it later. People like Saddam must know that they are putting their own thrones-and lives in the scale. Also Americans are frankly naive. Until we get used to the big bad world, the "war on terror" may be our only defense. But we shall sooner or later have to accept the fact that we are always going to be at war. The Brits did, we did in the last century. If we can keep the fighting away from our nearest and dearest, and make sure that if we aren't always loved, we are properly feared, that may be the best we can do. War after all can only be accepted as an expedient. If one form of this expedient becomes counterproductive we have to go on to another

Religion is made by man. Following Christ is Christianity. Now are you saying you are a humanist? If so then have you evolved? An then I ask you sir are you setting your own rules as you go along in life? What is your guiding principal. If you say you are in favor of a peaceful world then so are the animals of this world and they live together. True they eat but not as man but as a measure to survive. Men on the other hand eat and continue to fill a void and don't stop and become fat. I would love to discuss this because this is the demise of communist countries and in fact India. Thanks

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Americans are frankly naive. Until we get used to the big bad world, the "war on terror" may be our only defense. But we shall sooner or later have to accept the fact that we are always going to be at war. The Brits did, we did in the last century. If we can keep the fighting away from our nearest and dearest, and make sure that if we aren't always loved, we are properly feared, that may be the best we can do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing about the British Empire, like all empires before it, is that it could not be maintained, neither by trade, nor by coresponding military intervention - or supression. American imperialism is no different, and in fact, I believe what we are witnessing is the fall of empire in a truelly classical sense: the narrowing of spheres of influence, tension and unrest at home, attacks by enemies closer to the central seat of power etc. The fact that George Bush plans to remove troops from mainland Europe and Asia surely points to this. In response to Echo, it is really not the United States that has the muslim world by the balls, it is the reverse,considering the huge stake the Saudi regime has in the US economy, and even as we speak the US administration is feeling the squeeze. The conflict in Iraq has been likened to 'another Vietnam'. While the silimarities between both conflicts are glaringly obvious, there is one crucial difference. The "enemy" does not have a geographical base. This is a guerilla war being fought in a global theater. Guerilla wars tend to keep troops tied down for very long periods of time, have a terrible effect on moral (I'm currently in Korea just now and I have had ample opportunity to observe exactly how low moral is amoung those who will soon be leaving for Iraq), are bloody and nigh-unwinable. The lack of understanding about Islam, and middle eastern society is atrocious, but in the end this is an aggressive occupation of a forgein land and most occupying forces are abusive and tryanical. However, history has shown that abuse and tryany always sow the seeds of their own destruction. Unprincipled state violence has only one outcome - the destruction of the oppressor. It is oppression and injustice which is fulling the dissendence of the muslim world, and swelling the ranks of Al-Quaida. Killing people is very easy. Killing ideas is impossible without reason, compassion, and above all, justice.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are a punk and a PHONEY BUB. Get your cowardly butt over to Iraq and just try to start some of your rants in front of an American soldier. One thing is for sure : you won't be walking all too straight. As for Islam ? It's a two-bit peice of junk and the societies that use it are nothing but kaotic blood worshiping baby boys. You have no CULTURE and you treat your woman like slaves. You are just another worm going by. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a flame and completely unacceptable, but it contains some serious concerns which could have been voiced in a less offensive way. So I will break my usual habit of refusing to respond to flames and answer your points, on the understanding that abuse of this nature will cease forthwith. Firstly, I have repeatedly spoken to American Soldiers ( I am writing from South Korea ) and the range of opinion, on the street, ranges from something close to yours (although it has to be said that they are considerably more polite), to "why the hell are we being sent to make some rich white guy and all his pals rich?". So far, I am still walking upright. Many of the friends I made here in Korea were shipped out last week. I am not disputing the sacrifice and bravery of American personnel, only the necessity of them being there in the first place. I am not a muslim, although I have lived and worked with them for years. I have seen very little in that time of the 'oppression of women' that you speak of. The main oppression of women takes place in Saudi Arabia - a regime repeatedly condemned for its human rights violations, but which has a 6-7% stake in the US economy and remains a close "friend" to the US. And then, of course, the Taliban, who were orginanally trained and armed by the USA to fight the soviets. So the oppression of women has never bothered the US government (not even in the "homeland", where there is a rape or serious sexual assault every six minutes). As someone who as worked in muslim countries, shared their feasts, their joys and sorrows, sat their children in my lap, I see little of the oppression you describe. Only people who are desperately frightened for the future of their children, and who repeatedly ask why America hates them so much. As for getting my "cowardly" butt over there, I work in conflict resolution. In my profession, we frequently find ourselves negotiating in 'harms way', in many parts of the world, although without the luxury of violence, or the protection of a gun. I find it interesting that in order to do this work we must pass all kinds of psych tests, fitness evaluations, rigerous training, we must speak the language of the host country fluently, and we must be over the age of twenty five in order to apply. On applying we are asked to seriously consider our responses to extreme stress levels, and the possibility of torture and (since the vast majority of us are women) rape. And yet the US and British governments are quite happy to give a teenager a gun and send him off to places where he is ignorant largely of the language, culture, or the implications of his presence there. So no more flames like this, please. There are enough roasting the youth of our respective nations in Iraq.

Dear On Watch Here I am not "on duty", I'm studying, so escuse me while I engage in whatever discussions I see fit regardless of your delicate egos. Please refrain from using demeaning language as it really demeans only yourself. I have no quarrel with you, unless you are deliberately trying to pick a fight. With a girl? Dear me! I posted here seeking discussion and debate, not tirades of abuse. So I invite anyone with an interest in the geopolitics of the middle east to share their insites. I signed onto this list because a friend of mine - an expert in Defense and Strategy studies, recommended this website as a resourse as I am currently reading for my masters in the subject. If you think I am lying, please list the points that you take issue with or think are inaccurate. And I will answer you. Or perhaps you are afraid to? I'm not here to fight. Convince me if you disagree. I am open to all reasonable arguement. Advising me how to walk when in the company of my friends is hardly a compelling one. Uchiita PS. Girls are GIs too you know. What would I be doing flapping my hips at them?

It's really funny to talk about that to "believers". Believers are so illogical, that's crazy. You yourself just explained what religion is all about.. and you don't see it. YES indeed religions help humans and societies survive. THIS IS WHY THEY EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE. Everything that help an animal or anything survive is going to be retained by natural selection. For a lion it's his teeth, for a human it's his religion. It's very simple.. if you believe in something and it increases your chances of survival, and if your neighbour doesn't believe in anything, sooner or later you're gonna take over him, just because YOU HAVE MORE CHANCES OF SURVIVAL THAN HIM. You can believe in anything, if it's true or not it's really not the problem. The problem is that it increases your chances of survival, and that you transmit that to your children. The fact to "believe" is based on a error of logic. It's fairly simple. Basically there are questions that we don't know the answers to. Does God exist, where do we come from.. etc.. So when people say, I believe because "I have the faith".. well no.. there's a real reason why you believe.. because you don't have the answers to some questions and you jump on the first explanation that your culture gives you. Isn't it weird that all americans are protestants, all french are catholics, all israelis are jews, all egyptians are muslims, all chinese are buddists, all amazonians believe that the moon is the god?? It's like this for a simple reason.. there are questions you don't have answers to and you are brainwashed by your parents/cultures, and since you can't contradict what they say, since it's unknowable, then you conclude that it's probably true. I was put in a catholic church myself.. it didn't work for me because I'm someone very logical, but for most of the others, it worked very well. So like I said, it's all based on an error of logic, the fact that you beleive in something because you have no proof that it's wrong. AND IT'S A BIG MISTAKE. Your parents could have told you something completly different and you would have believed it too. And you would have been every bit as convinced, so convinced that you would have repeated that to your children, etc.. Problem is.. they could have told you 1000 different things! There's been how many religions/cults so far in the history of mankind? 100, 1000.. all contradicting each other.. if the MOON is the God, it's completly different that if Jesus is sent by God, and completly different if it's Mahommet, etc.. Since they are contradicting each other, at MOST one is true. Which means that THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE BILLIONS OF HUMANS WHO HAVE LIVED SO FAR BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THAT WAS COMPLETLY WRONG. Oh, it helped them survive, I have no doubt about that.. doesn't mean it was true! If as if I tell you.. I saw a rose elephant on my roof! are you gonna believe me? If it helps you survive, YES. I could have told you it was white, yellow, anything, doesn't matter. But chances are very small that it was rose! Now you're gonna tell me.. you can't understand I have the faith.. it's too easy to say that.. you believe in something because there are reasons why you believe in it, otherwise you simply would not believe in it. If you think about why you believe in what you believe really logically, you soon figure out it's not logical at all, and just saying "I have the faith" doesn't solve the problem, because the amazonians also said "I have the faith" and were believing in something completly different. Bottom line is.. YES religions help humans/societies survive, but it is COMPLETLY ILLOGICAL to comclude that Jesus really is the son of god! This being said, I don't know if God exists or not. This is a completly different problem. Maybe he does, maybe there are many gods, who knows.. maybe they don't give a sh*t about us.. WHO KNOWS??? For sure it's more comforting to believe that they're nice with us, etc.. but who tells you that God is really nice? Who tells you that he doesn't really want people to crash planes in buildings? Simply because "it is not nice" and he can't be what he would want? You have no clue what God - if he exists really wants -, maybe he's not nice at all after all.. for for sure if you think he's nice with you, it's going to help you survive...