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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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American Kafir    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam? - AK   6/23/2004 9:05:04 AM
"Your chose of words is very similar to Hitler's. If my pointing to this fact disturbed you; good, that was my intention. Now you have a chance to see where your path is leading you." I honestly believe if Hitler were to rise today, he'd be a Muslim fundamentalist. He'd be the screaming imam, and his followers in terrorism would be the new fanatic Nazis. So my "path" is simply the continuation of an unfinished war, the defeat of Nazis. It doesn't really matter much to me that today's Nazis wear turbans and scream in Arabic rather than German. It does matter to me that they exist. We're on the same side, Ilpars. We may not see our enemy in the same terms, but I'm pragmatic enough to accept that we probably want to see the same people dead or imprisoned. It's just that, as I said before, no matter who we kill, someone else is going to push propaganda about how evil we are. I've gotten past that. Now if Al Jazeera were to broadcast a story saying that "American Kafir poses a threat and a danger to Muslims everywhere" I'd blush with embarrasment and humility before thanking them. Only their coroner knows for sure.
 
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ilpars    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam? - AK   6/23/2004 9:15:55 AM
"We're on the same side, Ilpars. We may not see our enemy in the same terms, but I'm pragmatic enough to accept that we probably want to see the same people dead or imprisoned." I also believe that we are on the same side. My fear is if rising anti-muslim hatred will not be checked; it will eventualy damage by people. From where I stay, it looks like that the day when an American fanatic to kill an innocent Turk walking in the street because of his religion is not too far away. An innocent Turkish truck driver is recently killed by American soldiers in Iraq. And I am not sure if it is an accident or not. If they are really full of hatred to everything Muslim, then they are capable of killing himm intentionally. Can you say my fears are baseless?
 
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American Kafir    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam? - AK   6/23/2004 9:42:01 AM
"We're on the same side, Ilpars. We may not see our enemy in the same terms, but I'm pragmatic enough to accept that we probably want to see the same people dead or imprisoned." >>I also believe that we are on the same side. My fear is if rising anti-muslim hatred will not be checked; it will eventualy damage by people. From where I stay, it looks like that the day when an American fanatic to kill an innocent Turk walking in the street because of his religion is not too far away. An innocent Turkish truck driver is recently killed by American soldiers in Iraq. And I am not sure if it is an accident or not. If they are really full of hatred to everything Muslim, then they are capable of killing himm intentionally. Can you say my fears are baseless?<< I wouldn't say they are baseless. But certainly you've noticed that Americans being kidnapped and beheaded by Islamic terrorists happens a whole hell of a lot more often than Muslims condemning terrorism.
 
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ilpars    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam? - AK   6/23/2004 9:57:54 AM
"I wouldn't say they are baseless. But certainly you've noticed that Americans being kidnapped and beheaded by Islamic terrorists happens a whole hell of a lot more often than Muslims condemning terrorism. " But you aware that not every muslim. Especially not Turks. Turkish fundemental terrorists are too busy killing "infidel secularist" Turks anyway. Where to draw the line? Do you seek justice or vengeance? If you favor "Islam is evil. All Muslims are evil" mambo jumbo; than you will also favor atrocities against Turks, Kurds (both are highly pro-American) and also Muslim Americans who are mostly very loyal to America.
 
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American Kafir    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam? - AK   6/23/2004 10:10:44 AM
"I wouldn't say they are baseless. But certainly you've noticed that Americans being kidnapped and beheaded by Islamic terrorists happens a whole hell of a lot more often than Muslims condemning terrorism. " >>But you aware that not every muslim. Especially not Turks. Turkish fundemental terrorists are too busy killing "infidel secularist" Turks anyway.<< I will not disregard my feelings and sense that Islam does advocate killing while various Muslims have differed upon who the target of that killing should be. As a non-Muslim I know that they'll all agree I'm a legitimate target. Maybe you as well since you're a "secular Turk." Not all Muslims may want to kill me, but they all have a Quran that justifies killing someone. Might as well be me. Where to draw the line? Do you seek justice or vengeance? If you favor "Islam is evil. All Muslims are evil" mambo jumbo; than you will also favor atrocities against Turks, Kurds (both are highly pro-American) and also Muslim Americans who are mostly very loyal to America
 
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American Kafir    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam? - AK   6/23/2004 10:17:32 AM
Sorry... I posted reply too early... damn beer.. >>Where to draw the line? Do you seek justice or vengeance?<< I seek understanding. Even if it's the understanding that America will bomb the hell out of terrorists on sight. >>If you favor "Islam is evil. All Muslims are evil" mambo jumbo; than you will also favor atrocities against Turks, Kurds (both are highly pro-American) and also Muslim Americans who are mostly very loyal to America << That's fine. But when someone asks "Why are you loyal to America rather than Allah?" are you going to blow up a bus full of school children? You seem a reasonable person, so I know the answer is no. But how many would go to that extreme? It seems to me a larger number than most are willing to admit.
 
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ilpars    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam? - AK   6/23/2004 10:21:21 AM
"Not all Muslims may want to kill me, but they all have a Quran that justifies killing someone. Might as well be me. " That is a common mistake of anti-muslims and fundemetalists. (It might be freaky for you to have a common issue with fundementalists.). In Quran there is not even a single part that justifies killing and many parts that condemns it. There are some hadits that justifies killing but according to many muslim traditions these hadits are wrong. Fundementalists believe that killing an infidel is a good thing. And we are both infidels in their eyes.
 
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On Watch    Butchers & Friends...   6/23/2004 11:12:58 AM
Allah's Butchers By Ralph Peters June 21, 2004 Perhaps the greatest blasphemers in any religion are those who appoint themselves as God’s executioners. When an entire civilization embraces such butchers, both the civilization and the religion are in trouble. The ritual slaughter of Paul Johnson Jr. in Saudi Arabia wasn’t simply the act of a cluster of terrorists, but a reflection of the failure of the entire Arab world. Religions are what men make of them. In the Arab heartlands of Islam, Muslims are making a gory mess of their faith. It’s time to end the politically correct baby-talk insisting that Islam isn’t the problem. In the decaying Arab world, Islam is the problem—because of the way bitter old men interpret and deform its more humane precepts while embracing its cruelest injunctions. The decapitation of yet another American civilian can’t be dismissed as an aberration from “true” Islam. The tradition of beheading unarmed prisoners dates to the earliest decades of the Muslim faith. The butchering of Paul Johnson, Nick Berg and others isn’t a new phenomenon—it’s revivalism, “that old-time religion” returning for a re-match with secular devils. Millions of Muslims find such atrocities inspiring. Millions more view such cruelty as just. It’s the vicarious revenge of the self-made failure. And for every rent-a-cleric the Saudi government pushes in front of a television camera to condemn such acts, thousands of other mullahs continue to preach anti-Western hatred--the brutal specificity of which would horrify even America’s leftists, if only they stopped apologizing to terrorists long enough to listen. . . . Leftist apologists for terror here in the United States attack any attempt at a frank discussion of the Middle East’s problems with charges of bigotry and neo-imperialism. But if we examine the madness of the American Left dispassionately, we find that it’s the Noam Chomskys, Susan Sontags and their acolytes from the campus greensward who are the true bigots. Imperialists, too. By refusing to hold Middle Eastern civilization to reasonable standards of behavior and responsibility, our domestic Left has given new life to the “little brown brother” school of colonialist thought. According to the Left’s internal logic, Arabs aren’t capable of the same moral reflection and behavioral maturity well-educated whites demonstrate. And, of course, Arabs are oppressed (no matter that their oppressors are all Arabs). Arab extremists and dictators have become the ghetto blacks of hard-Left foreign policy. They’re all victims of Washington and bear no personal responsibility for their own errors, failures or crimes. It isn’t the Saddams, Abdullahs, Assads or Mubaraks who oppress the Arab masses, you see. Despots are never guilty--unless they get too chummy with the Americans. Anyway, dictators are victims, too. The mass graves and misery that haunt the Middle East (if such inconveniences must be mentioned at all) are my fault. And yours, dear reader. We’re to blame for all that’s wrong with the world. And don’t you forget it! The family secret of the hard-Left is that its followers share one powerful trait with Osama bin Laden: They need to look down on others, to feel superior and just. If the lords of terror dispense with displays of pity for their victims, it’s only because they haven’t yet attained the leftist’s level of hypocrisy. Why shouldn’t we hold a civilization accountable for its own failures and horrors? Why does our domestic Left revel endlessly in the excesses of a few renegade guards at Abu Ghraib prison while remaining silent on the industrial-scale massacres of Saddam Hussein—and other terror regimes? Why don’t our self-appointed “voices of conscience” speak out against the beheading of Paul Johnson Jr. or Nick Berg? What about the hundreds of Iraqi doctors, lawyers, engineers and educators slain by terrorists for trying to build a humane government in the Middle East? What about the countless civilians killed by car bombs? What about the victims of 9/11? The silence isn’t just deafening. It’s revolting. We all await, anxiously, Michael Moore’s film “Trolling For al-Qaeda.” A pity Paul Johnson Jr. won’t be around to watch it. Rest of the Story: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13849
 
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ilpars    RE:Butchers: The part of the article that OnWatch choose not to include   6/23/2004 11:45:27 AM
The part of the article that OnWatch choose not to include: In this part you can see that the writer specificall talking about Wahabi influenced Arab culture. Also he is adding that "It makes no difference that the Koran specifically forbids the mistreatment of prisoners. As with the worst demagogues in every religion, the apostles of terror cite religious texts selectively." It seems OnWatch specifically omits this part. Probably he doesn't like it. Here is the omitted part. ----------------- ... The Saudis, especially, have sown the wind and now are reaping the whirlwind. I personally have seen their attempts to “purify” Islam and provoke anti-Western rage, from Africa to Southeast Asia, from Central Asia to the Arab homelands. No matter how many terrorists the Saudis kill on their own soil hereafter, they will remain guilty—in great part—for every murder committed by Muslim extremists. They created the monsters who now have run amok. But the problem is far greater than the degenerate House of Saud. We face a phenomenon new to history: A once-great civilization failing before our eyes. Whether or not one subscribes to the idea of a “clash of civilizations,” we are incontestably witnessing the crash of an entire civilization, that of Middle Eastern Islam. After centuries of self-destructive behavior, Arab civilization is unable to compete in a single field of human endeavor relevant to progress. Instead, Arab societies are racing backward into superstition, bigotry and a narcotic culture of blame. They have grown so impotent in every other regard—unable even to translate great wealth into minor power—that Arabs rich and poor, educated and illiterate, are enraptured by their rare “triumphs” over the West, from 9/11 to the barbaric murder of Westerners doing the work that Arabs themselves are too slothful or incompetent to do. Baghdad fell, to the collective shame of those Arabs who prefer homegrown despots to Western-inspired democracy. The Arab revenge is to slaughter innocent captives. It makes no difference that the Koran specifically forbids the mistreatment of prisoners. As with the worst demagogues in every religion, the apostles of terror cite religious texts selectively. But if such practices are limited to fringe elements in other world religions in our time, the perversion of faith pervades today’s Islamic mainstream. One can’t say that, of course. Arab Muslims are allowed to spew anti-Western, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu, anti-everybody-else hate speech. That’s just their culture, you see. But it’s taboo for a Westerner to suggest that the roots of terror may go a bit deeper than a black sheep or two in a few Middle-Eastern families. ...
 
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On Watch    Butchers, Fakirs, & other hopped up Hajjis   6/24/2004 1:20:20 AM
>>OnWatch specifically omits this part. Probably he doesn't like it. ..."apostles of terror cite religious texts selectively. But if such practices are limited to fringe elements in other world religions in our time, the perversion of faith pervades today’s Islamic mainstream."... What's not to like Ilpars? I concur with COL Peter's assessment that the "Islamic mainstream is perverse" -- and, as I've stated many times, the Islamo-fascist influences inherent in Islam Today needs to be DESTROYED, ASAP. Furthermore, be advised that in my previous post I pasted those excerpts that were relevant to the current discussion, viz the Leftist's and others SILENCE on Beheadings versus the cacaphonous NOISE on Abu Grab! For your edification Ilps, be advised further, that I used an elipsis{...) to signal readers that I had not posted the entire text in my previous post. I also posted an active link URL to Ralph Peter's "Allah's Butchers" article! No, I didn't insult the reader by omitting citations & sources and pretending that Turkish manure don't stink. OW
 
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