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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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American Kafir    RE:AK and Hitler   6/22/2004 3:53:06 PM
"More and more people are going to discover and decide that Islam is at the heart of the problem. At what point do we stop pretending it's not logical to solve this problem? " >>Just replace "Islam" with "Judaism" or "Jews". Than what we get is a paragraph that is hard to decide if it is from "My Kampf" or not.<< That's convincing. My mind is changed. I'll just run out and join Al Qaeda right now and defend the rights of Jews everywhere.
 
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American Kafir    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam?   6/22/2004 5:08:12 PM
I can live with being an "@$$." Being an "@$$" gets things done before the dainty statement committee takes roll call. Turkey, as "reformist" and "secular" as it has come to be over the years, and as brutally effective as its counter-terrorism / ethnic cleansing efforts against the Kurds, still has a government that feels the need to make statements and take stances to appease the fundamentalists within Turkey and soothe its critics within the Islamic world. That alone tells me that for its part, the Turkish government sees Islamic fundamentalism as a greater than 1% problem. There's a certain bit of hypocrisy involved here. Turkey is trying to court both American favor and the favor of its Islamic neighbors, so that from the outside it looks like Turkey is criticizing America for prisoner abuse in Iraq, while prisoners in Turkey currently languish under documentably harsh conditions. It looks like Turkey is criticizing America for attacking terrorists, or criticizing Israel for targeted strikes on Palestinian terrorists, while thousands have been killed and millions relocated in Turkey's war on terrorism. To me, it's all fine and dandy to make a distinction between those who support terrorism and those who do not, but when Turkey courts the fundamentalists, regardless of whether or not they do it to soothe rising tensions, it no longer looks like a balancing act but rather an acquiescence. By catering to fundamentalists, Turkey is not protecting its secularism. Nor is it winning any support from the West. I think what's most frustrating is no matter what we who are opposed to terrorism do, whether here in America, or over in Turkey, propagandists are going to turn counter-terror strikes into "massacres" and combat operations into "baby-killing." Depicting one's enemies in the worst possible light is as old as Paul Revere's "Boston Massacre" woodcuts, probably older. I happen to believe Turkey is guilty of some serious war crimes and human rights abuses against the Kurds. Now, there are some ultra-left wing organizations that go overboard in dramatizing and hyperbolizing Turkey's human rights abuses. I don't subscribe to all of their claims. But there is a record of abuse, spanning years, that is hard to ignore. Whether or not Turkey has merely killed Kurdish terrorists or merely killed Kurdish terrorists, their families, their pets, and played jump-rope with their neighbor's intestines is beyond the point when the common denominator is that Turkey has done serious wrongs in the past, and still participates in questionable practices. You don't find pictures of smiling Turkish soldiers standing over piles of decapitated Kurds (who wants the hyperlink?) and come away with a sense of "Gee, I believe Turkey has the right to criticize the United States or Israel." But, I'm a simple man who thinks "nuance" is some high society condiment you dip potato chips in. What do I know? But if America were to unleash an anti-terrorism effort upon the Islamic world in the same fashion that Turkey has against against its Kurdish population, would Ilpars confuse us with Hitler?
 
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appleciderus    Apples, and moderation, are wormy.   6/22/2004 11:28:13 PM
I too am weary of this argument, but not as loquacious as other posters. Tired, fatigued, I carry on. Why? Because I am daily assaulted with the notion that islam is a peaceful religion. It is not! I admire secular Turkeys constant struggle with mad mullahs, while agreeing with AK’s observation that Turkey is historically and contemporarily guilty of the atrocities charged the US in Iraq. But my accusation is to islam as a whole. Ilpars defends islam by offering examples of modern Turkish secularism’s struggle with fundamentalist terrorists, and examples of Medieval Western cruelty as cause for modern terror. Neither is accurate. I could take 50 paragraphs, and 10,000 words to say this, but would consider my audience ignorant, and myself pompous: Until a majority of muslims deny clerics the ability to preach jihad, muslims are passive enablers and supporters of terrorism. In it’s entirety! 99%! No matter they hide in the cellar from Republican Guards, Revolutionary Guards, gasoline soaked tires, beheading of their children, or fear of the after-life! Until terrorism is not rewarded by islamic religious leaders, I condemn moderation by those targeted by the same terrorism I may be victim to. If that makes me an a$$, I’ll embroider the logo on my shirt. Alas, it seems I am not accorded such a title.
 
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wagner95696    RE:Americans must respect Islam   6/23/2004 12:35:36 AM
So? Decapitating hostages is offensive to Christians. We will stop when you stop.
 
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ilpars    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about Islam? - AK   6/23/2004 1:47:25 AM
AK, you have been very badly informed about Turkish war against PKK. More than 80% of Kurdish population of Turkey supports the war against PKK. The village guards a para-military organization to protect villages at SouthEast Anatolia from PKK attacks are all volunteers and dominantly Kurds. Turkish fighting methods are hardly brutal. Turkish soldiers always kills terrorists in firefights. Always let them surrender. Recently passed an Amnesty law for terrorists who had surrendered. Never once had done a targeting assasination. If you are questioning Erdogan's latest political manuevers, I believe they were done in the approval of US. As I say before he is a pro-American semi-puppet popularist. Your chose of words is very similar to Hitler's. If my pointing to this fact disturbed you; good, that was my intention. Now you have a chance to see where your path is leading you.
 
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ilpars    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about apples? -celebrim   6/23/2004 1:49:15 AM
Supporting is very different than approving. I am talking about oranges, you are talking about all fruits.
 
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ilpars    RE:Americans must respect Islam - wagner   6/23/2004 1:50:26 AM
Who is we, who is you? From your sentence I took the impression that I am neither.
 
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ilpars    RE:Apples, and moderation, are wormy. - appleciderus   6/23/2004 2:02:17 AM
Turkey is a country which has %99 population of muslims with a 211 years of history fighting against Fundementalism. This 211 years of fight is a fact that you can easily validate by cgecking history. If you say all muslims, that includes Turkey and giving examples from Turkey become valid. Giving examples from Medieval Europe is also valid because my point is Arab world is still living in medieaval times. You can say something 1000 times in 1000 platforms but that does not change the facts. Facts: Supporting terrorism is evil. Most of the muslims do not support it. Saying all muslims are supporting terrorism is a religous discrimination. If US and Russia did not try to use different terrorist groups to weaken each other's spheres of influences in the cold war age, we would have much weaker Fundementalist terrorism right now. Hizboullah and Hamas was supported by Russia in the past. Fundementalist terrorist groups fighting in Afganistan against Russia was supported by USA.
 
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chemist    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about apples? -celebrim   6/23/2004 2:28:21 AM
Maybe it is language that is the problem here ilpars, but 'supporting' and 'approving' are not that far apart in the minds of alot of us. Sigh, hate to use the stale Nazi analogy, but, would you say it was acceptable if people only approved of the Nazi regime and its action instead of supporting the Nazi regime and its actions, or that there was much difference between the two positions? Passive(approve) or active support(support) are both enabling actions. Unless a large number of Moslems start saying that fatwas supporting terror or military actions are silly and shouldn't be obeyed many Americans are going to see it as either passive or active enabling. Does that make any sense to you ilpars?.
 
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ilpars    Ilpars's declaration    6/23/2004 3:10:19 AM
I am Turk and a muslim. When I say the following declaration, the majority of Turks are the same opinion with me. All fatwas are silly and only a simpleton follows them. Active support of terrorism is simply murder. A great crime and a great sin. Passive support of terrorism is wrong but at 1 time or another most of the nations in the world had done it some way or another. Many European countries have been/are passively supporting PKK and Fundementalist terrorist groups by letting them organise in their countries. USA had passively supported Fundementalist mucahit groups at Afganistan. One of them was AQ. Soviet Russia had actively and passively supported many terrorist groups in the world including Arafat's organization and PKK. For Turks terrorism is terrorism. Ethnic or religious. Calling some of them freedom fighters, others terrorists is a hypocrasy. There is hatred in Arab World against Western Civilization (including against Turkey) because they were invaded by Western countries since recent times (change from country to country but till 1946 to 1960). They also have additional hatred against Turkey because Turkey had abolished Caliphate instead giving it back to Arabs. They believed turks never deserved to be Caliphates from start. The first 2 Wahabi Fundementalist Jihads were against Turkey. First one was between 1793-1829. Second was between 1915-1918. Many posts under this topic full off prejudgements and religious discrimination . The rising of religious discrimination in USA really disturbs me. I am going to USA every year for holiday and having great time. But everytime I witness some kind of not nice behaviour from some people when they hear I am Turk and muslim. We, Turks deserve respect and no we will not change our religion. It is your loss if you do not respect us. I really got bored in this topic. Haven't we discussed everything that can be discussable?
 
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