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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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ilpars    Turkish war against Fundementalism   6/22/2004 3:29:59 AM
Thanks for the link Chemist. That is what I am trying to explain from the start. I hate Fundementalism. And unlike people like AK, OnWatch or appleciderus; I fully understand who are they, what are their aim and what are they fighting for. Why do you think fundementalists are killing innocent American civilians? They want a rise in religious discrimination in America. They want power and a new crusade will bring them power. The most dangereous danger in this world is not Fundementalism. Most dangereous danger is a possible fanatic government take over in USA in the future who will not relent to use absolute power to win the war. One had said, they must be afraid of American fury. But they are counting on it. Radical Fundementalists do not want to conquer the world. Their aim is to take control of every muslim country in the world. Until now they were a minor power. So some muslim countries like Syria or Iran tried to use them. But now their power has expanding rapidly because of several attacks against muslim people. Radical Fundementalists are the only group in the world who declared Jihad against the "invaders". Every war makes them more stronger. They saw the trend and by attacking American civilians they are trying to start a global religious war which will carry them into power. I am Turk. My country started fundementalism at the times of Ottoman Empire and inflicted them the greatest damage by abolishing Caliphate at 1924. We are still continuing fighting them. Start of Turkish war against fundementalism started with Nizam-i Cedit reforms at 1793. So we are fighting them in the last 211 years. How long the USA fighting them? Since GW1. Fundementalists were allies of USA against the danger of Communism. Communism lost power and old allies became allies. Why? Because fudementalists like all other fanatics need an enemy to survive. GW1 gave them to oppurtunity to select USA as an enemy. So do not ask me why we are not fighting against Fundementalism. Turks are fighting them since USA is a newly founded state. I am not an Arab. I do not have an extensive knowledge of their history. But I know this. All Arab countries were invaded by European countries until last 60 years. Their natural resources were expoloited and they had very few rights in their own countries. Is it hard to understand why they hate European civilization?
 
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American Kafir    RE:For ilpars and AK    6/22/2004 3:40:48 AM
>>Apple may be being a hardcase, but he's also proving my point: moderates need to step up and get the jerky people under control or guys like apple and AK will be deciding policy, and they paint with broad brushes..<< Anyone "like me" deciding policy will paint with napalm, thank you. This is where we're at. We've got a world of Muslims either carrying out terrorism or standing silently by watching as other Muslims recruit, plot, and carry out terrorism. More and more people are going to discover and decide that Islam is at the heart of the problem. At what point do we stop pretending it's not logical to solve this problem?
 
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ilpars    RE:AK and Hitler   6/22/2004 3:53:35 AM
"More and more people are going to discover and decide that Islam is at the heart of the problem. At what point do we stop pretending it's not logical to solve this problem? " Just replace "Islam" with "Judaism" or "Jews". Than what we get is a paragraph that is hard to decide if it is from "My Kampf" or not.
 
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ilpars    RE:Turkish war against Fundementalism - typo   6/22/2004 4:23:21 AM
Typo: "My country started fundementalism at the times of Ottoman Empire" should be "My country started fighting against fundementalism at the times of Ottoman Empire"
 
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Echo    RE:Americans must respect Islam, WHY?   6/22/2004 6:49:46 AM
WHAT DOES ISLAM RECSPECT? CERTANLY NOT HUMAN RIGHTS,ITS ARCAIC BELIEFS IN MY VIEW ARE BARBARIC,GREEDY,FUEDAL,OPPRESSIVE,IGNORANTAND UNFAIR TO WOMEN.THERE IS NOT ONE ISLAMIC COUNTRY THAT HAS ANY FORM OF DEMOCRACY EXCEPT MAYBE TURKEY. FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN ISLAM IS UNHEARD OF. IF 99% OF MUSLIMS ARE NOT TERRORISTS,IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT 99%OF TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS. APART FROM THAT I THINK THEY'RE OK
 
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ilpars    RE:Americans must respect Islam, WHY? - Echo   6/22/2004 7:24:44 AM
My eyesight is not that good. And I have a stubbornness of not to wear glasses or lens. Can you consider writing in small letters? As much as I could read, I have find it prejudgemental. More than that they are pronounced several times under this topic. Nearly every week, a new one joined and nearly tell the same mambo jambo. Please forgive me but I am bored to death to reply them. Maybe next time I will make ready a premade response. Maybe I can give this answer. Why not respect someone who respects you? I do not say every muslim respects your religion or your way of live but many do. Do not they deserve respect? Why not respect the muslims who are civilized, gentle, nice, democratic and fair to women? I do not say every muslim is like this but many is. Generalization is always an unfair thing to do.
 
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celebrim    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about apples?   6/22/2004 10:42:11 AM
This thread is getting really ridiculous. You know that things have deginerated when I'm forced to become the 'bleeding heart liberal' in the group. I don't agree with AK, appleciderus, and the rest at all. I do understand where he is coming from, and I do understand why Ilpars apparant trivialization of the problem so annoys AK. However, regardless of this, the anti-Moslem hue and cry has reached the level blindly discriminatory. On one side you have a group of people blindly calling out that the number of Moslems tacitly supporting violence is very very close to 100%, and on the other side you have uncreditable claims that the number of Moslems who tacitly or actively support terrorism is very very close to 0 (1%). These are both unreasonable positions which merely agitate people and polarize thier views. AK: You are being an @$$. ilpars: Whether or not AK is being an @$$, you need to understand that when you talk about fundamentalists or terrorist supporters (or enablers) being only a tiny fraction of the Moslem population to AK you sound like someone who is unreflective and trivializing very real problems. In particular, the number '1%' simple denies the scale of the problem. Even a cursery overview of the conflicts occuring between Moslems and thier neighbors produces very different numbers. 1) Saudia Arabia: Officially Wahabbi orthodox and on the verge of a devisive civil war, as much as 50% of the population supports the goals of Osama Bin Ladin. The majority of Al Queda's funding is known to come from a handle full of wealthy Saudi's. The government refuses arrest these men because it fears triggering further attacks on its own soil. Polls conducted of men under age 34 found as many as 95% of them either approved of the attacks on the World Trade center or believed that they were carried out by Israel. Saudia Arabia has a population of 25.7 million. 2) Palestine: Controlled by a loose coallition of militant gangs all of which actively support terrorism. Virtually the entire population of Palestine is subject to pro-War anti-Western propaganda. Disagreement with the State apparatus can and does get people killed. Nearly 75% of the population feels that war with Israel should not end until Israel ceases to exist. More than 80% of the population supports attacks on buses and resturants. More than 75% supported Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin. More than 75% believe that the people who attacked the World Trade Center are freedom fighters. 72% of the children under 18 said when asked that they want to become suicide bombers. The population of Palestine is estimated at least 3 million. 3) Iran: Taken over by a radical Islamic revolutionary front in 1979. Although support for the movement has wained under the realities of religious rule, probably 50% of the population can still be considered supporters of a very radical brand of Shia. Currently sheltering Al Queda refugees from Afghanistan and working on a nuclear weapon. Currently known to be directing attacks on US troops in Iraq. Currently known to have thousands of intelligence operatives in Iraq. Has strong connections with some of the militant gangs in Palestine and Lebanon. Close ties with the government of the Sudan. Clerics recently denied legislative representation to non-religious parties. Iran has a population of 69 million. 4) Sudan: Since large oil reserves were discovered in southern Sudan, the predominately Arab Islamic government of Sudan has stepped up its campaign to drive Black African Christians, Polythiests, and lately even Black Moslems off the land. Although this war is not being fought for strictly religous reasons (few are) it is certainly being cloaked under the banner of Islam. In the past 20 years, more than 2 million Christians have died in a program of ethnic cleansing. Four million more have been driven off thier land. An estimated 350,000 more Black Africans will die in this program over the course of the next year unless the US or other Western power intervenes. Ironically, the Sudanese government engages in attacks on villages with helicopter gunships for the explicit purpose of exterminating the population, but recieves no condemnation from any Arab country and little attention any Islamic country. Compare this with the scale of the casualties inflicted by Israeli gunships in Palestine. No Arab country is calling for a right of return for the 4 million Christian refugees (greater than the population of all of Palestine). Sudan continues to engage in a large slave trade, predominately in young black girls. A not insignificant number of these end up as prostitutes and domestic servants in Saudia Arabia. The population of the Sudan is 39 million, 80% of which is Moslem. 5) Nigeria: The governers of the two northern most provinces have declared Sharia law and are in active rebellion to national government. Under Sharia law, all Christian churches in these regions were burned, t
 
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NewGuy    RE: Now wouldn't you rather be talking about apples?   6/22/2004 2:43:09 PM
Very well put celebrim...no matter how you look at it, there is certainly a problem with militant Islam. And that problem was not created in a vacumn -- certainly nothing like 99% of Muslims condone homicide bombings or terrorist acts, but there has to be some degree, much greater than at a 1-2% level, of support in order for the current situation to be explained. The exact percentage, frankly, we cannot possibly know: but the fact is that a significant minority of Muslims either actively or passively aide if not the acts at least the cause and/or the idealogy behind Islamic terror. That has to change. NewGuy
 
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Vulture    level of support   6/22/2004 3:16:37 PM
It's not just terrorism for Islamic Fundies. what percentage of muslims support Fatwas calling for the death of non-muslims? Last I checked it was something over 10% in England. That makes for thousands of people on my do no go unarmed near list ;) And let's not even go into how bad it is on the mainland. So since there is no central authority in Islam to counter these claims against infidels, the whole of Islam gets tarred. That is why I am so hesitant to trust muslims in general.
 
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doggtag    RE:level of support   6/22/2004 3:38:23 PM
a old adage goes something like, "the nation that cannot police itself cannot be trusted". Supposedly, it came about back in WW2 times, concerning Hitler's rise to power in Germany. But it points out the inherent problems in Islam: if you're not going to quell the questionable preachings being put forth by individuals within your own system of beliefs, then you effectively condone their actions, rather than condemn them. A "christian" church I formerly attended was such a place: never really considering the cancerous teachings that questionable individuals within its own ranks were pushing, yet demanding respect for their beliefs and actions because, supposedly, they are all "god's people" and are taking their "orders" directly from his holy spirit. Riiight...and supposedly Koresh was, too. It would so appear that enough Islam followers adhere to the same style of faith. But if they cannot police their own ranks, then who are they to demand the respect of the rest of the world? An ounce of prevention is cheaper than a pound of cure, and you can save face more by nipping problems in the bud, as opposed to letting things get too far out of hand and have everyone crying, "why didn't somebody do anything?" I'm all for people pursuing spirituality, but when someone starts pointing guns and waving knives in the name of their religion, they deserve whatever trouble befalls them. When Islam, and other religions, start cleaning up their act, I'll give them the respect they are trying to demand. But until then, they refuse to take precautionary preventive measures to quell their questionable followers; so until they do, they will have to be content with the American "pound of cure". If only those people would have chosen to be more active in balancing their religion, they wouldn't be getting the pounding they're getting now. America (the government) says that we are not out to stop Islam, but if those people keep using it to hide their violence behind, then they are only brining it on themselves..
 
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