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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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PlatypusMaximus    Another vigil in Iran   12/6/2004 2:18:40 AM
200 pledge willingness to carry out suicide attacks against Americans, Israelis 02:08 AM EST Dec 06 An Iranian man, prepares his daughter by covering her face in the same style of Palestinian and Lebanese militants, during a ceremony for the first suicide commandos unit at a cemetery just outside Tehran, Iran, Thursday. (AP Photo/Vahid Salemi) NASSER KARIMI TEHRAN, Iran, (AP) - Some 200 masked young men and women gathered at a Tehran cemetery Thursday to pledge their willingness to carry out suicide bomb attacks against Americans in Iraq and Israelis. The ceremony was organized by the Headquarters for Commemorating Martyrs of the Global Islamic Movement, a shadowy group that has since June been seeking volunteers for attacks in Iraq and Israel. A spokesman, Ali Mohammadi, described Thursday's group as the "first suicide commando unit," though another official has claimed members already have carried out attacks in Israel. "Sooner or later we will bury all blasphemous occupiers of Islamic lands," Mohammadi said. Sunday, Iran's deputy interior minister for security affairs told reporters the movement had no official sanction and said such groups could operate only "as long as their ideas are limited to theory." The group, though, has the backing of some prominent hard-line Iranian politicians. The deputy minister, Ali Asghar Ahmadi, did not say if the government had tried to crack down on the military style training the group claims to offer or whether officials believed any of its volunteers had crossed into Iraq or into Israel. Iran has had no diplomatic ties with the United States since the 1979 Islamic revolution ousted the U.S.-backed shah. But it says it has no interest in fomenting instability in Iraq and that it tries to block any infiltration into Iraq by insurgents - while pleading that its porous borders are hard to police. Iran portrays Israel as its main nemesis and backs anti-Israeli groups like Lebanon's Hezbollah. Wives, husbands and children accompanied volunteers to the cemetery, which was decorated with posters denouncing America and Israel. "I joined the unit to fulfill my religious task for Palestine," said a volunteer who gave only his age - 23. Thursday's ceremony included the unveiling of two-meter (6-foot) stone column commemorating a 1983 attack on U.S. Marine barracks in Lebanon as "the biggest suicide bombing operation against global blasphemy." In the early hours of Oct. 23, 1983, a truck carrying more than 2,000 pounds of explosives sped past a sentry post and exploded in the center of the barracks, killing 241 Marines. Then U.S. President Ronald Reagan ordered U.S. troops to withdraw from Lebanon a few months after the bombing. In 2003 a federal judge blamed Iran for the 1983 terrorist bombing in Beirut and said Tehran would have to pay damages to survivors and relatives. What's a non-racist word for filthy, death-worshiping, meat-bombing, fascist rabid dog?
 
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PlatypusMaximus    RE:Correction: Condemning Terrorism- Info request.   12/6/2004 4:33:22 AM
"How many of 56 member of OIC have not passed resolutions, or publicqally stated their opposition to 'terrorism' or been party to recent international resolutions condmening terrorism, since 9-11." If we're talking Israeli human rights violations, all of them. If we're talking about the poor bastards in the Sudan (nice knowin' ya), not a stinking one of them.
 
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sorkoi2003    RE: Logic 101   12/6/2004 9:40:41 AM
If someone believes they are hated because of their postive qualities - and they are subject to attack because of those qualities- it means if you understand virtues as postive qualities- that reason why you are hated or attacked is not because you are bad or have done bad things, not because the attackers can't stand their virtues. That's all.
 
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sorkoi2003    RE:Reading 101   12/6/2004 9:46:48 AM
"How many of 56 member of OIC have not passed resolutions, or publicqally stated their opposition to 'terrorism' or been party to recent international resolutions condmening terrorism, since 9-11." "If we're talking Israeli human rights violations, all of them. If we're talking about the poor bastards in the Sudan (nice knowin' ya), not a stinking one of them." Actually, I was talking about condemning terrorism in the wake of 9-11- since that how the tread had developed. So your reponse is kind of a red herring (or should that be red-neck herring :). (By the way has Organization of African States condemned the Sudan)?
 
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sorkoi2003    RE: non-racist words   12/6/2004 9:52:03 AM
"What's a non-racist word for filthy, death-worshiping, meat-bombing, fascist rabid dog?" On the evidence of your recent interventions Platypus why would you need a non-racist word?
 
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SGTObvious    Sorkoi wobbles through Logic 101   12/6/2004 11:37:04 AM
"If someone believes they are hated because of their postive qualities - and they are subject to attack because of those qualities- it means if you understand virtues as postive qualities- that reason why you are hated or attacked is not because you are bad or have done bad things, not because the attackers can't stand their virtues." I do beleive there's a thought in there struggling to get out, but buried under one to many "not"s. The fact is yes, people and groups of people can be hated for good qualites. Jealousy is an old thing. People can be driven to hate those they feel are better, and can be convinced, very easily, that the situation is unfair. Winners always think the judges decision was wise, losers think it was biased. In the case of the fundamentalist Islamic world, the reality is, they don't hate us for our freedoms, at least not directly. They hate us because of our wealth and power. They live under a philosophical system which teaches that their system is entitled by divine grace to be the wealthiest, most powerful entity on the planet, and that their system is perfect. Thus, the only way their philosophy can acocmodate a more powerful political entity is to assume it acquired its wealth and power wrongly, and since Islam does not manifest any appreciable wealth and power on its own, the only answer consistent with their beleifs is that somehow we took away their success. Their system simply cannot accept that an alien system (ie, one based on Freedom, Rights, and Tolerance)outproduces an Islamic system. It is impossible, intolerable, and to them, evidence of evil. So, they hate our Freedom only indirectly, as they hate the fact that that Freedom has helped produce a system of greater wealth and power than theirs. Remember, their philosophy can accept no foreign ideas, nor can it adapt: doing so would be an admission of imperfection, which cannot be. Hence, it is impossible for a fundamentalist to attribute any western success to any positive virtue whatsoever. Therefore it must be attributed to vice- there is no third alternative. So "they hate us for our freedoms" is technically accurate but misses the mark. Still, Bush needed a sound bite, and I really can't see him (or anyone else in government) saying "They hate us because our comparitive economic, scientific, and social success is inconsistent with a fundamentalist philosophy" which would have been more accurate. Religious fundamentalist movements have always had this problem, and they always go through the same kind of answers. Unable to compete with other philosophies in the arena of physical wealth, success, and standard of living they: 1) Reject the notion of wealth as being good, like the Amish. Islam can't do this, as the Q'uran clearly promises material rewards. 2) Reject everything, like the Jonestown cult and other crazy suicide cults. Embrace Nihilism. Islam is rapidly drifting into this. It may devolve into one big suicide cult. The shame is that they try to take decent people with them. 3) Establish a "the system sucks but God is coming to clean it all up" mythology. Very common, from the native American "Ghost dance" stories to the more hard core Christian conservatives that seem convinced that rapture will be sometime this afternoon. Islam evidences a lot of this, too, but with its own twist: rather than leave things in divine hands they picture themselves as the agents of God who will do the cleaning themselves. 4) Seperate earthly and spiritual success. Mainstream Christianity, Judaism, and other religions do this. Buddhism is built on it. Some Muslims- Sufis- have done this. Problem- doing this on a large scale rips away the political power of the clerics. It wasn't easy for Christianity to do this. But it was done, and western society was better for it.
 
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SGTObvious    RE:Educating Sorkoi.-mike golf   12/6/2004 11:48:42 AM
"Exactly, backing up Sarge's point that empires of conquest do worse at the center than at the periphery with historical observation from another empire of conquest." That's exactly where I was going. The odd thing is, Sorkoi produces another example of an Empire of Conquest, the Macedonians, which provides yet more evidence of this phenomenon, and yet he doesn't get the implications. The Mongols showed the same pattern. In a nutshell: when a socially and economically weak but militarily strong power establishes an empire, it absorbs the culture and economy of the conquered areas, which become the stronger part of the Empire. When a socially and economically strong power establishes an Empire by building itself into weaker areas, the Core remains strong and its own culture and economic power is not displaced. Hence, neither London nor Rome faded as their Empires grew. They prospered, and culture flowed out, not in. The almost total obscurity of the Arab heartland (Arabia) after the Arab conquests demonstrates the weakness of their economic and cultural system, just like the relative strength of East Germany compared to the USSR demonstrates the weakness of the Soviet system. Sorkoi keeps noting "they moved" without stopping to ask WHY they moved. And the only possible answer: They captured a better place. Not BUILT a better place, Sorkoi, had they been able to do that they would have built their heartland up first.
 
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sorkoi2003    RE:Educating Sorkoi.-architecture   12/6/2004 1:22:39 PM
"That's exactly where I was going. The odd thing is, Sorkoi produces another example of an Empire of Conquest, the Macedonians, which provides yet more evidence of this phenomenon, and yet he doesn't get the implications. The Mongols showed the same pattern. In a nutshell: when a socially and economically weak but militarily strong power establishes an empire, it absorbs the culture and economy of the conquered areas, which become the stronger part of the Empire." Any serious suggestions to how might be included: I discount the following: Akkadians, Babylonians, Chin, the Assyrians, the Achemenids, the Makedonians, the Athenians, the Romans, the Sassanids, the Muslims, the Carologians, the Mongols, the British, the French, the Spanish, the Russians, the Tang, the Aztecs, the Incas... as all of these were built on conquest. Also, you need to stop thinking of the Arabs at time as an ethnicity with a specific homeland... as explained earlier. BTW what happened to lesson you were going to give on why Dome of Rock is not an example of Islamicate architecture... I was hoping to learn something. When a socially and economically strong power establishes an Empire by building itself into weaker areas, the Core remains strong and its own culture and economic power is not displaced. Hence, neither London nor Rome faded as their Empires grew. They prospered, and culture flowed out, not in. The almost total obscurity of the Arab heartland (Arabia) after the Arab conquests demonstrates the weakness of their economic and cultural system, just like the relative strength of East Germany compared to the USSR demonstrates the weakness of the Soviet system. Sorkoi keeps noting "they moved" without stopping to ask WHY they moved. And the only possible answer: They captured a better place. Not BUILT a better place, Sorkoi, had they been able to do that they would have built their heartland up first.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Educating Sorkoi.-mike golf   12/6/2004 1:35:20 PM
SgtObvious wrote: "When a socially and economically strong power establishes an Empire by building itself into weaker areas, the Core remains strong and its own culture and economic power is not displaced. Hence, neither London nor Rome faded as their Empires grew." The obvious modern equivalent to the Soviet Empire is the American "Empire".
 
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mike_golf    RE:Educating Sorkoi.-mike golf   12/6/2004 1:36:58 PM
SgtObvious wrote: "When a socially and economically strong power establishes an Empire by building itself into weaker areas, the Core remains strong and its own culture and economic power is not displaced. Hence, neither London nor Rome faded as their Empires grew." The obvious modern corrolary to the Soviet Empire is the American "Empire". The Soviet one was an empire of conquest with a weak social and economic system, the American was the opposite, strong social and economic system and avoiding conquest. Which one survived and which one didn't. This just reinforces the lessons we learn from the Greeks, Persians, Macedonians, Mongols, Romans, British, French, Germans, etc.
 
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