I did'nt know that I had to learn about Islam so I could better understand why they like flying jets into building, or chopping off heads, hands, throwing blindfolded people off roofs, removing tongues and treating woman like cattle. Of course you jumped back to EUROPE and it's past to validate something silly, but you left out what Islamics were doing back then anyhow so it does'nt really matter. I'm sure you want to pretend that they were teaching peace and happyness until the evil CRUSADERS came by and stole all of the books on Astronomy and other silly tales. I watch those silly movies from time to time too. I'm not Jewish, but I don't think of them as victims. Hitler was just a psycho who turned Germany into a junkyard because nobody would buy his crappy paintings on snowy nights. Jews don't need pity or want it. They run plenty of shows on this big blue marble. They are just people going by like everybody else, trying to live and let live. Seems to me the warmongers these day's are Islamics who blame ? You guessed it..

Cocoonboy. Reading a thread before venting your spleen: it might save some time and energy. In 'More Bull' I was responding to number of points which SWB made- his comments are in quote marks- mine without quote marks. So I never claimed I had uncle in death camps- to be fair SWB did not - all said was half his family was murdered by fascists- there more to fascism than Nazis...

Cocoonboy: "I did'nt know that I had to learn about Islam so I could better understand why they like flying jets into building, or chopping off heads, hands, throwing blindfolded people off roofs, removing tongues and treating woman like cattle." No, you don't have to. But it helps. Kind of like learning about civil engineering to help you better understand why buildings are built the way they are.

See the photo in this post (scroll down past header to image of Moslem children): URL: http://arkansas_bushwhacker.bravejournal.com/entry/7664 The photo with the children pretty much says it all, and therein lies a prime example of why peace in the Middle East remains as distant as ever. A RELIGION AND CULTURE that sees nothing wrong with training its children to be suicide bombers NOT for the sake of freedom or statehood, which they COULD have had long ago BY ACCEPTING A REASONABLE PEACE AGREEMENT, but to 'kill all Jews and other infidels' in order to conquer the world for allah, IS THE PROBLEM. There are over one billion Moslems in the world, and if Islam is really a "religion of peace" then it should be easy for the Moslems to deal with the terrorists themsleves. They KNOW who the terrorists are, as they live among them, and are supported by them. Until I see Moslems dealing with this issue, I can have no respect for them or trust anything they say. The Arkansas Bushwhacker

Fellas - salaam is not really concerned about the atrocities at AG prison. Avoidance/prevention/prosecuting-the-guilty-doers of such atrocities is primarily a matter of respecting prisoners' human rights in general, not islam in particular. But salaam is demanding respect (in the AG prison affair) to islam *in particular* - not of human rights in general. Note that his grievances have primarily to do with the guards over the muslim prisoners: no women, no gays. Certainly not a matter of human rights in general. Now my question is this: Why such offense taken by having women prison guards? Is it that offensive to the islam religion? Why is such a deep offense taken on this in the name of respecting islam? It's one thing to *respect* prisoners' human rights (be they muslim or whatever), but it's quite another to *cowtow* to a theology that'd put our women guards out of jobs because islam -in particular - demands it. I think we ought comply with the former, while avoiding the latter. And in this way, we can refuse salaams request concering respecting islam-in-particular, and still maintain our respect for prisoners' human rights in general (be they muslim or whatever). JMAC

This thing never get's anywhere.Only in America are people running around pondering the history of the whole Islamic world. Why ? Because some idiot's( 19 Saudis ) with box cutters decided to fly planes into buildings. Ever since, we've been soaked daily in all forms of the Koran in one way or the another. Most Americans know so much about the KORAN that we could actually become CLERICS if we choose. Too bad nobody from the Middle East considers all of the good America has done on this planet, yet very telling that everybody that flew those planes into WTT went out to get drunk at strip bars the night before eh ? I suppose they could'nt wait for that after life bit ?.

I know what you mean and I have chipped in an ear, but I suppose I don't want to be a Civil Engineer..

"When you look at Islamic and Communist countries, they don't produce any useful output, other than weapons. It's ample proof of their skewed and distorted nature" So how do you explain the entomology of the following words are from Islamicate languages: algebra, chemistry, algorithms... how circumnavigation of Africa in 1450s, or maping of human circulatory system in 11th century or coffee houses... I could go on but it would turn into a paradoy of the Monty Python sketch in the Life of Brian...

If your eyes offend thee - dont bother reading, sorkhoi. The author is way out of your understanding. Holland: Trouble in a Multiculturalist Utopia By Michael Radu FrontPageMagazine.com | November 30, 2004 No one has ever suggested that Dutch filmmaker, columnist and self-described “buffoon” Theo van Gogh, who was murdered this month, was a particularly nice person. His libertine views were ecumenically anti-religious: He had bad words for Jesus, made fun of the Jews sent to Auschwitz, and called Muslims “goat-kissers.” Yet it was not a follower of Pat Robertson or a Hassidic Jew who shot him repeatedly and cut his throat in the center of Amsterdam on November 2, but a fanatical follower of what President Bush and others continue to call, without nuances, a “religion of peace”: Islam. Holland is a country where drugs, euthanasia, and gay marriage are legal, and prostitutes and the military are unionized—simply put, a real country as close as possible to a liberal, tolerant, multiculturalist utopia on earth. And that, as the Dutch have belatedly discovered and become angry about, is precisely the problem. This belated anger—two years after the equally shocking assassination of gay, environmentalist, and equally libertine populist Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn by an “animal rights” militant claiming to “protect” Muslims—explains the post-van Gogh attacks on Muslim schools and mosques (there have been retaliatory attacks against churches, as well) in a country famous for its strong distaste for argument. Add to that the fact that prior to Fortuyn there had been no political murder in the Netherlands since the 1584 assassination of Wilhelm of Orange, the nation’s founder, and one begins to understand why one murder in Amsterdam may have an even more profound impact on Dutch culture and behavior than 3,000 deaths in America on 9/11. The Netherlands is by far the most densely populated country in Europe, if not the world. Hence Fortuyn observed that the country was “full.” But even so, it had, until quite recently, a very liberal immigration policy, which applied to former colonial subjects (mostly Surinamese and some Indonesians), but also to others who lacked historic or cultural claims to residence. Among these were Moroccans (some 300,000 out of Holland’s total Muslim population of about 900,000) and Turks. Unlike other European countries, there are few, if any, ethnic/religious ghettos in Holland—no French-style banlieus—and the welfare state works massively to the benefit of immigrants. In fact, van Gogh’s murderer himself, 26-year-old Mohammed Bouyeri, was on welfare after voluntarily interrupting his studies in informatics. He was born in Holland, and while he spoke excellent Dutch, apparently he knew little Arabic: His “manifesto,” pinned with a knife on van Gogh’s chest, quoted the Dutch translation of the Quran. He enjoyed dual Moroccan and Dutch citizenship. Widely described as intelligent, he apparently became unhinged after 9/11 and more so after the U.S. invasion of Iraq. He had a history of petty crime and a dysfunctional family, and was recruited by a radical imam, Mahmud El-Shershaby, a follower of the Tabligh movement, in the De Baarsjes neighborhood, a known center of Islamic radicalism. Following a path already becoming common in Europe—one followed by, among others, Zacharias Moussaoui, the French-born suspected 20th 9/11 terrorist—Bouyeri was also influenced by a high school buddy, Samir Azzouz, a failed would-be martyr arrested in Ukraine in 2002 while en route to Chechnya. What was most upsetting to the Dutch public and Dutch politicians was the fact that this would-be martyr—Bouyeri expected to be killed by the police and had a rambling suicide note on his person when he was wounded and apprehended—was not a lone lunatic but part of an international terrorist network with links to Spain, Germany, Iraq, and Morocco. Indeed, according to Spanish counterterrorist judge Baltasar Garzón, one of the leaders of Bouyeri’s cell, 36-year-old Moroccan Abdeladim Akoudad, played "a leading role" in the Dutch terrorist organization known as the Hofstad Group. After the plot to attack the Dutch Parliament was uncovered, he provided logistical support for the Dutch cell. Meanwhile, one of Akoudad's contacts, Mouhsen Khaybar, has been active in supporting mujahedeen insurgents in Iraq, and appears to be linked to the infamous leader of the “al Qaeda Organization in Mesopotamia,” al Zarkawi. As for Samir Azzouz, he has been linked to Abdelaziz Benyaich, now jailed in Spain for his role in the Casablanca bombings of May 2003 and the March 11, 2004 Madrid bombings. So Bouyeri was a little cog in a network covering three continents and some five countries. And that was just the Islamist angle; the shock of van Gogh’s assassination also pushed the Dutch authorities to decide to “discover” a training camp (yes, a “secret” training camp in an overcrowded country) oper

Only Americans seem to think the dutch are "liberal" ... well, maybe they are, but liberal rightist, not liberal leftist. There is a difference. And certainly their hositility towards people of colour and the usual European hysteria towards immigration is no exception. Just because the weed and whores are legal, does not mean that the place is tollerant of other religions and cultures. Actually my experience of Northern European countries is that they are fairly unaccepting of them. Naturally, it's all realtive. In America there is no real left wing, so it's hardly surprising that confusion is rife. Uchiita