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Subject: Why is Israel so scared off attacking Iran without the U.S?
SCUD    2/19/2009 5:49:26 PM
Why is that small state bothering Palestine and other much less armed groups like hamas but is pleading the US to attack Iran? This would only spread into a much larger conflict if the US get involved. Plus, Bush said he preferred diplomacy than military conflict. Obama, of course, is less likely to attack Iran than Bush for the state of israel. Israel spends much of our media influence to scare Americans into believeing in a terror threat from islamic States to keep them in war mode. But no one percieves Iran as a threat BUT Israel. Israel must understand that America has nothing to gain from attacking Iran for Israel. Nothing but high casualties, oil prices and an even worse reputation.
Israel should sit down and talk with palestine and these nations and direct it's military at other militaries instead of apartment complexes, schools and hospitals. Who could possibly war for a nation like that that first off isn't even a territorial responsibility? Especially, with the amount of debt.
 
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FJV    Because Israel is small   2/20/2009 2:02:09 PM
Being an American might make this hard to understand, but since I'm Dutch and from a small state myself.......
 
Let's just say that mistakes the US can make and easily shrug off would be fatal for Israel, which makes the stakes much higher. Even when a mistake isn't made Israel will have a much harder dealing with the situation that results after they strike Iran.
 
To sum it up:  there are a lot of options the US has that just aren't available to small states.
 
 
 
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SCUD       2/20/2009 3:22:20 PM
Your response sounds ridiculous. If one was to use your way of thinking there would be no understanding of how little old Nazi-Germany took down Russia with minimal concerns or how Japan took down the Great Dragon China. These nations took down what they percieved as threats without bugfing others to do it for them. They were troublemakers that were honored on their ability taking down the big boys, sorta like a pitbull would seize a germanshepherd, despite being the underdog. Israel to the contrary only targets underequipped militias like Hamas and STILL come out the loser while promoting violence as an escuse to cause others to go to war against formidable nations for Israel's benefit. This does not work in America's political or economical favor to do Israel's work for them especially when there should be no military conflict to begin with. 
 
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swhitebull       2/21/2009 7:09:05 PM

Your response sounds ridiculous. If one was to use your way of thinking there would be no understanding of how little old Nazi-Germany took down Russia with minimal concerns or how Japan took down the Great Dragon China. These nations took down what they percieved as threats without bugfing others to do it for them. They were troublemakers that were honored on their ability taking down the big boys, sorta like a pitbull would seize a germanshepherd, despite being the underdog. Israel to the contrary only targets underequipped militias like Hamas and STILL come out the loser while promoting violence as an escuse to cause others to go to war against formidable nations for Israel's benefit. This does not work in America's political or economical favor to do Israel's work for them especially when there should be no military conflict to begin with. 


Sounds like a bit of Iranian Revolutionary Guard wishful masturbatory thinking of how they'd LIKE things to have turned out. the IRANIAN-trained HAMAS was humiliated militarily, with its leaders huddling like rats in their holes for fear of being taken out, HAMAS didnt have a single successful encounter with the IDF,  they used women and children as shields - as in, hiding behind skirts like cowards, since they couldnt face the IDF face to face like REAL men, and Iran lost face, the REAL loser.
 
 
swhitebull - now, if you care to debate REAL issues, rather than Muslim fantasies, feel free. We've had Iranian shills on this website before - we call them red meat and cannon fodder here.
 
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swhitebull       2/21/2009 7:13:12 PM

Why is that small state bothering Palestine and other much less armed groups like hamas but is pleading the US to attack Iran? This would only spread into a much larger conflict if the US get involved. Plus, Bush said he preferred diplomacy than military conflict. Obama, of course, is less likely to attack Iran than Bush for the state of israel. Israel spends much of our media influence to scare Americans into believeing in a terror threat from islamic States to keep them in war mode. But no one percieves Iran as a threat BUT Israel. Israel must understand that America has nothing to gain from attacking Iran for Israel. Nothing but high casualties, oil prices and an even worse reputation.
Israel should sit down and talk with palestine and these nations and direct it's military at other militaries instead of apartment complexes, schools and hospitals. Who could possibly war for a nation like that that first off isn't even a territorial responsibility? Especially, with the amount of debt.


Would that be the apartment complexes, schools and hospitals that HAMAS was illegally using according to the Geneva Protocols as points of assembly, weapons depots, fighting points etc as has been finally and conclusively documented by western media sources? Sounds like HAMAS was fighting to the last Palestinian civilian, as usual, hiding among civilians like cowards since they cant  face the IDF face to face like REAL soldiers. They got what they deserved -  DEATH - with the bulk of the casualties HAMAS-related, contrary to PALI propaganda.
 
swhitebull - have a nice day.
 
 
swhitebull
 
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SCUD       2/21/2009 7:35:26 PM

 




Sounds like a bit of Iranian Revolutionary Guard wishful masturbatory thinking of how they'd LIKE things to have turned out. the IRANIAN-trained HAMAS was humiliated militarily,
 
 

First off, Israel I've seen the war videos of Israel vs. Hamas. Israelis were dying left and right prompting them to bombed civilians as the only way of equalling the number of their soldier losses the IDF faced. The Israelis were too scared to send ground forces against Hamas in greater numbers losing what bit of tanks they already did. Hamas suffered minimal losses as Israel never knew who they killed in those schools while hamas was taking regular IDF soldeirs off tanks with shots.
  Israel already has been humiliated. They don't want any of Iran. You porkins would be done for sure.

 
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swhitebull       2/21/2009 11:46:48 PM




 









Sounds like a bit of Iranian Revolutionary Guard wishful masturbatory thinking of how they'd LIKE things to have turned out. the IRANIAN-trained HAMAS was humiliated militarily,


 

 




First off, Israel I've seen the war videos of Israel vs. Hamas. Israelis were dying left and right prompting them to bombed civilians as the only way of equalling the number of their soldier losses the IDF faced. The Israelis were too scared to send ground forces against Hamas in greater numbers losing what bit of tanks they already did. Hamas suffered minimal losses as Israel never knew who they killed in those schools while hamas was taking regular IDF soldeirs off tanks with shots.


  Israel already has been humiliated. They don't want any of Iran. You porkins would be done for sure.





Yep -  dying in droves-  that is what ALWAYS happens when the IDF goes up against those wonderfully brave, invicibile Arab armed forces. Ask the Egyptians and Syrians who won in 67, and you will get the MOnty Python Black Knight response,  just like you just gave. Totally delusional, and if you REALLY REALLY believe the Hamas propaganda tapes, Ive got some rancid goat balls to serve you.
 
swhitebull -  another Hamas apologist heard from, and an Iranian RG shill to boot, and not long for these boards. What is it that makes these cockroaches emerge from the darkness?  Im not going to post any more evidence here, as it's been posted many times on the Gaza cakewalk. This fatullah still cant explain why Hamas was screaming for a ceasefire if they were doing so devastatingly well, and he cant explain away the HUGE Hamas losses in personnel, ESPECIALLY that one unit of 100 Iranian-trained Hamas elite "troops", a euphemism for thugs with guns, that simply ceased to exist when it confronted the IDF. TOO EMBARRASSING, isnt it, SCUDDLY?
 
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AdvanceAustralia       2/22/2009 4:30:51 AM
"But no one percieves Iran as a threat BUT Israel."
 
Rubbish. The member countries of the GCC all view Iran as threat. The UAE (where I live) is having an anti-missile system installed over the next few years. This isn't because they think Qatar is going to get nasty and start lobbing missiles our way and they don't seriously expect Israel to either. It is Iran that is often testing long range missiles in this region. Iran illegally occupies 3 UAE islands in the Arabian Gulf and refuses to discuss their return. Just this past weekend an Iranian minister reminded the Bahrainis they were once part of Iran. I for one am very pleased that the US 5th Fleet is based in Bahrain and sits between us and Iran.
 
Iran is a wider problem than you make out.
 
Cheers.
 
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swhitebull       2/22/2009 6:38:24 PM

"But no one percieves Iran as a threat BUT Israel."

 

Rubbish. The member countries of the GCC all view Iran as threat. The UAE (where I live) is having an anti-missile system installed over the next few years. This isn't because they think Qatar is going to get nasty and start lobbing missiles our way and they don't seriously expect Israel to either. It is Iran that is often testing long range missiles in this region. Iran illegally occupies 3 UAE islands in the Arabian Gulf and refuses to discuss their return. Just this past weekend an Iranian minister reminded the Bahrainis they were once part of Iran. I for one am very pleased that the US 5th Fleet is based in Bahrain and sits between us and Iran.

 

Iran is a wider problem than you make out.

 

Cheer
Did you expect anything less from an IRG shill?   Disinformataion to divert attention and to weaken resolve is trademark of this. Remember what area of the world chess developed from, and where checkers came from, .
 
 
swhitebull
 
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AdvanceAustralia       2/23/2009 10:59:55 AM




"But no one percieves Iran as a threat BUT Israel."



 



Rubbish. The member countries of the GCC all view Iran as threat. The UAE (where I live) is having an anti-missile system installed over the next few years. This isn't because they think Qatar is going to get nasty and start lobbing missiles our way and they don't seriously expect Israel to either. It is Iran that is often testing long range missiles in this region. Iran illegally occupies 3 UAE islands in the Arabian Gulf and refuses to discuss their return. Just this past weekend an Iranian minister reminded the Bahrainis they were once part of Iran. I for one am very pleased that the US 5th Fleet is based in Bahrain and sits between us and Iran.



 



Iran is a wider problem than you make out.



 



Cheer



Did you expect anything less from an IRG shill?   Disinformataion to divert attention and to weaken resolve is trademark of this. Remember what area of the world chess developed from, and where checkers came from, .

 

 

swhitebull

I don't recall encountering this loser before so I didn't really have an expectation. I wonder if he and Herc Necrophiliac Necromancer belong to some international stooge network.
 
 Cheers.
 
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brit cadet       4/28/2009 3:40:17 PM
hey respect iran omid djalli is iranian
 
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00_Chem_AJB    Omid Djalili   4/28/2009 8:51:52 PM
Omid Djalili is a very funny comedian, unfortunately he does not represent Iran in any official way nor does he dictate Iranian politics, that job is currently in the hands of a religious and militant bureaucracy. Should Djalili take over these duties then the world would be a much safer place, but until then we are stuck with a group of men who cannot agree on anything: some want to progress, others want to stay where they are, others want to turn the clock back and drag the rest of the world with them, some want to commit genocide and others are plain nuts. The thing is however, I think you will find that Djalili is probably more qualified to run Iran when compared to most of the current establishment.
 
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LB    Premise Wrong   4/29/2009 12:57:21 AM
The premise of the question is wrong.  It is in fact the US that is concerned about Israel attacking Iran and Bush in fact effectively denied Israel permission to attack Iran in 2008 by not allowing overflight of Iraq.
 
Iran is going to have enough material for an atomic weapon within a few years.  Exactly how long is not public knowledge.  Being able to delay this a X number of years might very well be in the interests of the US.  The trouble is that X might not be achievable and 1/2 X might not be worth all the fallout.
 
If Israel believes Iran might attack them with nuclear weapons, as Iran has publicly stated, then the equation for Israel is different.  Israel, and specifically the new PM, do not view Iran as 100% rational.  If you believe there is some chance your self proclaimed enemy will attack you with nuclear weapons than your view of X and it's consequences is going to be different than US calculations.
 
In short the US has decided it can live with a nuclear armed Iran.  It's fear is that Israel does not hold the same view and thus will attack Iran at some point whether the US gives permission or not.
 
 
 
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WarNerd       4/29/2009 5:39:41 AM
Israel's problem is very simple, they have no way of getting to Iran without passing through a US air defense zone.  They would not have to be attacked by US forces, but they would be challenged in the clear if the US had not approved the mission in advance, alerting anyone who might be listening.  Like Iranian air controllers.
 
Without surprise, an Israeli raid on Iran could become VERY costly.
 
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Darth Squirrel       5/21/2009 11:12:08 PM
It may seems unthinkable, but frankly I believe any Israeli attack will come from Saudi Arabia.  They may even use the Saudi RAF to refuel them.  The old Israel plan called for a northern attack from Turkey as well, but now that is clearly out of the question.  Their alternate base in Georgia may be off the table as well.  Azerbaijan is a possibilty, and Iran has expressed significant anxiety over Israel-Azerbaijan security cooperation.  Azerbaijan also owes Israel some favors, if you know anything about the Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict. 
 
Of course, the most important thing for Israel is going to be positioning their assets without tipping off American, Russian, various EU, Turkish, or Chinese intelligence.  Any of these nations are likely to alert Iran to an imminent attack.  The thing we are certain of is that the United States wants to do NOTHING and is ready to accept a nuclear Iran.  They are sure Iran will "moderate" as it ascends.  The same morons also said that China would "democratize" as it ascended, but they don't talk about that anymore. 
 
I want to believe that Israel, under Netanyahu, will ignore the odds and do what needs to be done.  The real test is to defy the US despite the threats that were laid done by the Bush administration and recently expanded upon by Obama and Panetta.  The calculus may have changed if Iran can field this new missile in significant numbers, and if Israel really is defenseless against it.  If they are determined to attack Iran regardless of the American position, the blooming Iranian missile capability could actually accelerate Israeli strike plans.  They've already eroded their chances by waiting so long.  The good news is that Netanyahu's intellect is many multiples of Obama's.  Netanyahu has been telling us for years what must be done with respect to Iran.  Let us hope that he can now put words into resolution.
 
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Spiky       5/22/2009 11:20:00 AM

Something to consider?

 

Diplomacy and 12 LONG years of embargoes and sanctions did not work to change the behavior of Saddam Hussein and his government. That is the Middle East. Now, we are trying with diplomacy and sanctions, for several years, to change the behavior of Iran's leaders. Does any one see a familiar pattern? Iran is the country that fought Iraq for 8 years in a very brutal war. They are the ones who sent thousands of their young boys to battle and to their deaths without proper weapons and ammunition, but were told by the Khomeini they were invulnerable because Allah was on their side. Iran through Hezbollah was involved in the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon in 1983 and the U.S. Marine barracks the same year. To this day, still Iran provides funds, training, and weapons to insurgents in Iraq that have killed thousands of Iraqis and U.S. soldiers. Iran is feared by her neighbors as much as they did Saddam Hussein. Why? Because both Saddam and the Iranian leadership of mullahs are disturbingly similar when it comes to power and their desire to dominate the Middle East.

 

Well, basically, here are the three options:

 

(1) MORE diplomacy (This is what will most likely happen, since we have our hands full with Iraq and Afghanistan and the wars are terribly expensive. Obama did say "this would be the last planned war-funding supplemental request to finance the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan." The supplemental for 2010 to the military for Iraq and Afghanistan total $130 Billion. Hence, Obama's effort to bring the Afghanistan theater to a close as quickly as possible, and probably one of the reasons why Gen. McKiernan got axed since progress in Afghanistan was going to slow for the current administrations political timetables and deadlines. Also, the American public in general does not want to go to war with Iran. Today, another war or conflict would not be popular, especially with the liberal left which is where much of Obama's hardcore support comes from both politically and financially. Iran is savvy enough to understand these things. So, it continues to play the diplomacy card just like the North Koreans have, and in the process Iran continues to stall while they proceed with their nuclear research. In a nutshell, this is what Iran expects and what they are counting on to happen. But, one never knows, maybe they will drop the nuke program through this venue; just don't forget how long Saddam held out.

 

(2) Take military action. Preferably with the full support of the international community which is easier said than done (this takes time, precious time). Without the support of the international community, Obama would be doing something similar to what the last "Cowboy" did. Politically, I doubt he wants that association. The military options are too many for me to even try to begin to think about, so I leave it as it is.

 

(3) Give the "Pass Go and Collect" to Israel to take care of Iran themselves and support them publicly. Many Arab States in the Middle East would condemn this action, but, secretly, some would be saying "Praise Allah, I don't have to worry about Iran getting their hands on nukes." Still, both the U.S. and specially Israel would get blasted by some in the international community and in the unsavory halls of the U.N. I believe this is Obama's second most probable choice of action.

 
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