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Subject: Best Allied General of WW II
buzzard    7/13/2007 11:24:59 AM
Now in my opinion, the best generals of WW II are German. They did some amazing things which what they had at their disposal. However I am curious as to whom people think were the best allied generals. Mind you I am specifically naming generals since allowing admirals in would broaden things more than I like. So who's your pick? While I am a fan of Patton, I doubt he merits this title. I imagine a good case could be made for General Slim in Burma. This would be one example where the allies didn't have a massive material advantage. buzzard
 
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Nocturne       2/15/2010 2:56:30 AM
In German shoes..i would have mailed a pair of iron crosses to Lucas and Clark for helping to hold the lines in italy. Amazing work. Patton is overrated...
 
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cwDeici       2/15/2010 5:38:22 PM
I had a closer look at Zhukov and he doesn't seem to have been that good. Great, but not the best... also I noticed from the menu at 'home' that it's western front.
 
Well, I don't know... Eisenhower maybe? I'm not sure about his tactics and even local strategies, but he seemed to do the regional and overall strategy well, and most of all he was decent at coordinating other generals with each other.
 
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LB    Ike as General   2/15/2010 11:40:52 PM
To be fair Ike's role as Supreme Commander is often separated into overall coalition command (political role), where he dozens note he did an impossible job far better than anyone could imagine, and his role as commanding general in the military context. 
 
As a general Ike was awful.  Firstly he rarely bothered actually getting involved in military operations and failed to coordinate the actions of his various deputy commanders.  Moreover, he was loathe to fire poor leaders or supervise them.
 
The entire point of Torch was to seize Tunisia and yet not a single axis ship was sunk in November.  Having done nothing whatsoever to interfere with the axis build up Ike then designates about 10% of the total force to advance in Tunisia under Anderson.  It would be difficult to find a worse allied army commander.  Ike pretty much did nothing when much needed to be done in terms of command of the following 7 month campaign for Tunisia.
 
The failure to interfere in any way the axis withdrawal from Sicily is infamous.  The man in charge was Ike.  I won't even mention Italy.  One could fill volumes over Ike's failings as a general in NW Europe.  Not making sure Monty cleared the approaches to Antwerp was criminal negligence.  One or both of them should have been fired.  Same exact state of affairs over Market Garden.  Not properly supervising one's subordinates is leadership 101.  Ike never showed any strategic planning much less flair.  Letting all the armies under his command attack in a broad front was not a strategy.  Slowly pushing back the Bulge instead of pinching it out from the base was beyond amateurish.
 
It has often been argued that nobody else could have done Ike's political job.  As a general he left a LOT to be desired.  Marshall in North Africa constantly sent instructions to pay less attention to the political sphere and more to military operations.  Frankly he should have been fired over North Africa as he expected to be.  He should have fired Monty a dozen times.  If you are not willing to supervise operations you are no general.
 

 

Well, I don't know... Eisenhower maybe? I'm not sure about his tactics and even local strategies, but he seemed to do the regional and overall strategy well, and most of all he was decent at coordinating other generals with each other.


 
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Hamilcar    Herding cats and logistics.   2/16/2010 6:45:40 AM

To be fair Ike's role as Supreme Commander is often separated into overall coalition command (political role), where he dozens note he did an impossible job far better than anyone could imagine, and his role as commanding general in the military context. 

 A coalition commander cannot separate the political from the military. The best he can do is use the political currents to influence in such a wat to direct a sensible military strategy.

As a general Ike was awful.  Firstly he rarely bothered actually getting involved in military operations and failed to coordinate the actions of his various deputy commanders.  Moreover, he was loathe to fire poor leaders or supervise them.

 The purpose of a deputy commander (Montgomery)  is to take the strategic commander's (Eisenhower) political brief, develop and execute an operational plan. I don't excuse Eisenhower in that here was where he actually failed, but I want to make clear, that he was never tactically responsible for the operational stuff.   

The entire point of Torch was to seize Tunisia and yet not a single axis ship was sunk in November.  Having done nothing whatsoever to interfere with the axis build up Ike then designates about 10% of the total force to advance in Tunisia under Anderson.  It would be difficult to find a worse allied army commander.  Ike pretty much did nothing when much needed to be done in terms of command of the following 7 month campaign for Tunisia.

Then blame the air and naval commanders. I don't. They had theor hands full with a major logistics crisis.  That is also the major reason why Anderson advanced on a two division front. No gas, and most of the troops available had to garrison and build a operation base in  HOSTILE as in enemy territory. 
 
 
The failure to interfere in any way the axis withdrawal from Sicily is infamous.  The man in charge was Ike.  I won't even mention Italy.  One could fill volumes over Ike's failings as a general in NW Europe.  Not making sure Monty cleared the approaches to Antwerp was criminal negligence.  One or both of them should have been fired.  Same exact state of affairs over Market Garden.  Not properly supervising one's subordinates is leadership 101.  Ike never showed any strategic planning much less flair.  Letting all the armies under his command attack in a broad front was not a strategy.  Slowly pushing back the Bulge instead of pinching it out from the base was beyond amateurish.

1. The Straits of Messina could only be closed by land based artillery or some form of continuous airpower. Neither was allotted or available. Ever seen Mount Aetna?
 
 
 
  
 
That is a dominant land feature that channels approach avenues.  The only way to cut the Germans off would be land north of Syracuse. Montgomery refused. I agree that the Allies did not have the air-power to risk a landing that far north.
 
If you want to blame Salerno on a person, then blame Mark Clark. Same for Anzio. I agree, though, that Monty failed to come in to close the back door on the Hermans when 5th Army sucked them into Salerno. That is actually a good reason to double damn the Butcher of Alamein. He KNEW the situation, the opportunity present, when the Germans took the bait,, and still halted for a critical 40 hours, leaving the Americans to punch their way out of a mess worse than Omaha Beach.  Patton, overrated as he is, would have moved.    
 
Caen was Monty's responsibility and his fault.  Antwerp was also his fault. Market Garden (the narrow front strategy) was specifically  his fault. Funny, I don't see Eisenhower's name popping up here associated  with these disasters since he directed that those objectives (Caen and Antwerp) be achieved . Quote    Reply

Black Hornet       3/14/2010 3:24:32 PM
Patton was good except for his not demanding & seeing the need for heavier & better tanks.
 
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LB    Ike   3/14/2010 6:12:49 PM
The problem with pointing out failings in Monty is that he was not supervised.  There are dozens of instances where Ike should have fired Monty.  Clark should never have been given an army to command.
 
It is certainly correct to point out the difficulties in any operation to interfere with the evacuation from Sicily.  This does not excuse nothing whatsoever being done or even planned for.
 
On August 10th at 10pm Alexander sent to Adm Cunningham and Air Marshall Tedder in regards to the evacuation "You have no doubt coordinated plans to meet this contingency".  There was no plan.  Taking few risks to destroy an evacuating enemy army you'll just have to fight again was negligent.  Alexander should have been fired by not focusing as an objective on destroying those forces.
 
It was J.F.C Fuller who wrote in regarding the failure to do anything to interfere with the withdrawal that the "two greatest sea powers in the world had ceased to be sea minded".  To note the work of Liddell Hart if the direct approach to the objective, destroying the retreating enemy, was not the best idea (attacking the crossing points with air or naval forces) then an indirect method should have been found such as landing in Calabria and bagging all the guns defending the straits as well.
 
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Hamilcar    Man, those are good points.   3/14/2010 9:45:26 PM

The problem with pointing out failings in Monty is that he was not supervised.  There are dozens of instances where Ike should have fired Monty.  Clark should never have been given an army to command.

It would have taken Roosevelt to force this issue, as in the end it actually did.  Mark Clark was a lot better than Fredendall. He was actually better than Bradley. I guess that says something about US Army top leadership that most Americans don't like to admit. If you want to find the really good American  Generals then you need to look at the Pacific Army level commanders, (Geiger, Eichelberger  and even Krueger)  or the European Corps level commanders (Middleton, and Taylor for example) The only army level commanders actually worth mentioning in Europe are Patton., Hodges, and Simpson..

It is certainly correct to point out the difficulties in any operation to interfere with the evacuation from Sicily.  This does not excuse nothing whatsoever being done or even planned for.

Montgomery. It was his plan and his omission.

On August 10th at 10pm Alexander sent to Adm Cunningham and Air Marshall Tedder in regards to the evacuation "You have no doubt coordinated plans to meet this contingency".  There was no plan.  Taking few risks to destroy an evacuating enemy army you'll just have to fight again was negligent.  Alexander should have been fired by not focusing as an objective on destroying those forces.

He had no usable airfields with adequate airpower in range in North Africa, or in Sicily. Let me explain what I mean. When the Americans landed on an island in the Pacific, the first place for which they headed was the enemy airfield. That was to the exclusion of the high ground or the main enemy force concentration. Its only common sense, right? Not unless you fought Guadalcanal. Grenada, what was the first place on the American to do list? It was the airport. Second example was Panama. Among the first targets hit were the airfields.
 
 
That is HUSKY.
 
Do you see Gerbini Airfield complex?

 
 
 Looks like a good target for Montgomery right? Patton's troops took the airbase complex. That's right,  George Patton's 7th Army. How long did it take the USAAF to repair and establish its presence? 
 
That was not the American INTENT....
 
 IV. Allied and Axis Plans and Dispositions.

On June 7, 1943 Eisenhower outlined his plan for the invasion of Sicily to the War Department. In addition to the elaborate air plan, which called upon each of the various air commands in the Mediterranean area to contribute to either the build-up or the invasion itself, Eisenhower described a series of simultaneous seaborne assaults, assisted by air landings, to capture the seaports of Licata and Syracuse and the airfields between these cities, in order to lay the groundwork for operations against the airfields at Gerbini, Catania and Augusta. Patton's Seventh Army would be aboard the ships of the Western Naval Task Force, commanded by U.S. Admiral Hewitt, while the Eastern Naval Task Force, commanded by British Admiral Bertram Ramsay, would convey Montgomery's Eighth Army. The latter was to operate in the eastern sector, and had as its objectives the port of Syracuse and the airfield at Pachino. Its XIII Corps was to land south of Cap
 
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Black Hornet       6/8/2010 10:07:05 PM
Patton gradually showed himself to be America?s greatest fighting general. Under his command, the Third Army killed or captured 1.4 million soldiers of the Third Reich, while enduring the lowest casualty rate of any Allied army in the European Theater of Operations (ETO). A strategic assessment of Allied generals compiled by the German Oberkommando Herres (high command) described Patton as "the most modern, and the only, master of the offensive" among Allied commanders: "Patton is the most dangerous general on all fronts. The tactics of other generals are known and countermeasures can be effected against them. Patton?s tactics are daring and unpredictable. He fights not only the troops opposing him, but the Reich."
 
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