Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT

Witzig RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers 1/9/2006 9:24:41 PM

It might be interesting to include at this stage some words written by an officer of the Waffen SS... " One will pehaps be surprised to hear that freedom of conscience was absolute in the Waffen SS. One could find agnostics, practicing catholics and pprotestants there. The chaplain of the French SS Brigade Charlemagne was Monsignore Mayol de Lupe, a personal friend of Pope Pius XII, and i had in my unit a Roman Catholic priest who served as a simple soldier. While the majority of the SA men were members of the National Socialist Party, not only was party membership not obligatory in the Waffen SS, it wasn't even recomended. People don't want to understand this. We were without a doubt political soldiers, however we defended an ideology which superseded politics and parties." "One unique feature of the Waffen SS was that it was a volunteer army, in which from 1942 European soldiers from many lands and peoples could be found: Albanians, Bosnians, Britons, Bulgarians, Cossacks, Croats, Danes, Dutch, Estonians, Finns, Flemings, French, Georgians, Greeks, Hungarians, Italians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Norwegians, Romanians, Russians, Serbs, Slovakians, Swedes, Swiss, Ukranians, Walloons; as well as Armenians, Byelorussians, Hindus, Kirghizens, Tartars, Turkmen and Uzbecks served under thier own flags in the Waffen SS. Almost all of these peoples were represented in my unit. The only ones missing ( in his unit ) were Albanians, Bosnians, Britons, Cossacks, Georgians, Greeks ansd Serbians." "It only remains to be said that as part of the army we neither had to recieve nor did we recieve operational orders from Himmler during the war. Himmler was neither a serving soldier nor a military commander, even though he tried to appear to be one at the begining of 1945." "The real creator orf the Waffen SS was thus General Paul Hausser whose nickname 'Papa Hausser' was a symbol of the affection we held for him. Together with Felix Steiner, an old warrior from the baltic, and Sepp Dietrich, he gave the Waffen SS a style and an offensive spirit which could pehaps be compared with that of the Napoleonic Gaurd." "How can it escape a person's notice that this army, consisting of about a million young Europeans, all of whom displayed the same cold-bloodedness towards death, thoroughly and absolutely failed to confirm Reichsfuhrer der SS Himmler's nebulous ' Theory of the Nordic Man? ' " Otto Skorzeny ----------------- The fog of war seems to find it's way into the pages of the book but it does point to the one striking thing about the Waffen SS. People rallied to the flag of the SS and it's ideology, not the individuals of German goverment. Not the National Socialists but to the SS. IMO the Fallschirmjager could pehaps be placed higher when considering what they achieved versus what they had to do it with. Especially the defensive battles of Italy and Normandy and not forgeting Eban Emael and Crete. Added to this they seemed to retain the honour of true soldiers. An ideal i know but many veteran oponents have pointed out that they fought hard and fought fair and proper.

Quote Reply

S-2 RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers-Paul Hausser 1/10/2006 1:52:24 PM

Don't know quite why, but I missed the boat on Hausser. For being one of my "favorite" German generals, it would seem that I'd retired him rather early. In point of fact, he commanded II S.S. Panzer Korps at Normandy, where he was promoted to 7th Army command upon the suicide of Friedrich Dollman. I knew better, based on the excellent histories of I & II S.S. Panzer Korps written by Michael Reynolds, but evidently age is remorselessly creeping along. Hausser actually was on Kesserling's staff at the end of the war. My mistake.

Quote Reply

Ghostrider RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers-Paul Hausser 1/10/2006 6:39:42 PM

I have all of Michael Reynolds books, and I think he does a great job in writing, his material is neither pro axis or allied, but simply based on facts from the battles. He is one of my favorite authors.

Quote Reply

S-2 RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers/Witzig Reply 1/11/2006 12:59:17 PM

"IMO the Fallschirmjager could pehaps be placed higher when considering what they achieved versus what they had to do it with. Especially the defensive battles of Italy and Normandy and not forgeting Eban Emael and Crete." I'm not certain that I totally agree. While not denigrating the fighting qualities of the fallshirm troopen, I'd suggest that their employment in Italy, particularly Cassino, and in Normandy were correct given the salient factor of terrain. Constricted avenues of approach were the given in both locations, with the bocage being far more intensely spread through the American sectors of Normandy, and Cassino being an artillery observer and light infantryman's defensive delight. Too, these units were well-endowed, I believe, being one of the few types to still possess nine battalion/three regiment structures late into the war. Hardly the case in the standard German infantry division by 1944. I thought Eban Emael was a pionieren/Brandenburg op., conducted with gliders? As for Crete, didn't the final outcome depend on the timely intervention of an airlanding division-not quite the same as the Fallshirm?

Quote Reply

Ghostrider RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers/Witzig Reply 1/11/2006 2:23:58 PM

Check this out, its pretty informative... link should answer most of the questions and there are many books covering that battle for Eben-Emael.

Quote Reply

S-2 RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers/Witzig Reply 1/11/2006 3:20:00 PM

Thanks, Ghostrider. I guess the "Witzig" byline has it's origins somewhere with Eban Emael's assault commander. Good read.

Quote Reply

Witzig RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers/Witzig Reply 1/11/2006 3:28:52 PM

Well spoted! I'd forgotten about the air landing division at Crete. However they did have an airstrip to land on thanks to the Fallschirmjager, even if the hold on the airfield was helped by the inactivity of the British who i believe did not think that such reinforcements could be brought in by air on an airfield overlooked by British with artillery support. The link in the previous message is a good one. Much of the material seems to have been lifeted from a book by James Lucas called Kommando. Witzig ended the war on the Western front as commander of a Para regiment, don't know which unfortunately. It is fair to say that troops with very limited and specific objectives can produce results that seem to far outstrip their capabilities. The Waffen SS rarely had this luxury ( if thats what you'd call it ). As this thread is about the SS has anyone considered the performance of the SS Para battalion 500 who tried to take out Tito in operation Rosselsprung. Just as a rough history ( as it's all i know ). After Rosselsprung the few survivours where assigned to Skorzeny's command and trained for a drop on Budapest. This never happened and only a few men from this battalion took part in the Battle of the Bulge. The remainder formed a core of vetrans and was re-equipped and reinforced to full stregnth. This unit was renamed SS Para Battalion 600 and was posted to the east bank of the Oder at Zehden. They held this position for three weeks while on either flank the units retreated or were destroyed. On the 26th of March thirty six men ( all that was left of 800 ) swam across the Oder as the last outpost on the East bank. Heavily reinforced once again SS Para Battalion 600 was the only full strength unit among the forces flung together for the defence of Neuruppin. On one day in April, No 3 Company had stood to at dawn with a stength of 84 men at last light it was down to 30 men alive. During the day Soviet Gaurds Tank Divisions backed by Gaurds Rifle and Cavalry Divisions had attacked against this one company and it's thin line of defence. By 14.00 hrs all Panzerfaust/shreck weapons had been used and a Battalion of Russian Tanks had been destroyed, a further five assaults where flung back using only grenades and satchel charges. Before another assault could begin the order to withdraw was recieved and the 180 survivors made their way back to German lines. Nothing more is known of them. When you read stuff like that..... An SS Battalion of Paras. Anyone else know much of them, i have read they where very ruthless and did use 'pep' pills nowadays known as crystal meth, now thats a reason for the butchery.

Quote Reply

Ghostrider RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers/Witzig Reply 1/11/2006 3:40:30 PM

not sure if any books were made about them, may need to check google..hehe but the book by James Lucas called "Kommando" I have, and it talks about them a little if I remember correctly, and about some crazy stuff the Brandenburgs did. I guess the Brandenburgs did not like the idea of the Waffen SS making its own commando team, which was the Para Abt. led by Otto Skorenzy. So I guess if you want to know more about the Waffen SS Commandoes, I would check out books that entail Otto Skorenzy.

Quote Reply

Witzig RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers/Witzig Reply 1/11/2006 7:43:02 PM

I've just been beavering away at some books and... The brandenburg Division was always under the umbrella of the Abwehr. It started life as the 800th Special Duties Battalion at the end of 1939, attatched to the "Sabotage and Subversion" Department of Abwehr II. Skorzeny claims that this unit was part of a planned putsch against the Fuhrer and the German government in November 1939. The man given this task was Maj Helmuth Groscruth. Halder, Chief of Staff of the Army, worked against this and transfered Groscruth to another position. The 800th Special Duties Regiment then became the Brandenburg Regiment and later the Division. The Brandenburgers were, at first, recruited for expertise in languages and the customs of the countries immeadiately bordering Germany. They were usally inserted thru enemy lines in disguise to seize bridges, factories etc. The Sonderverband z.b.V Friedenthal ( Skorzeny became it's comander in early '43 ) was formed as the result of an order from General der Waffen SS Hans Juttner, chief of the operational headquarters of the Waffen SS. The men where commanded by Waffen SS officers and at first were only allowed to recruit from Waffen SS volunteers only. This changed and volunteers could be recruited from all four elements of the German Armed Forces. It was part of the armed forces and designated for 'special employment', this meant that any chief of an element of the armed forces could call on them for special military operations. This unit was born SS but remained so only in name. One branch of the SS ( not the Waffen ), the Sicherheitsdienst or SD ( well known i know ) took part in ' black ops ' of it's own, the radio station raid at Gleiwitz ( one of the attacks that was used as a pretext for war with Poland ) was one and before that they inspired anti German riots in all the ethnic German parts of the countries bordering Germany. These i know little of. As Germany had two inteligence services, and their roles eventually began to overlap, in the Third Reich it seems normal to therefore have two independant 'Special Units' attatched to these inteligence departments. Skorzeny's unit was not like this but part of the regular German armed forces albeit borne of the SS as were the SD and the Waffen SS. SS Para Battalion was originally believed to be a 'penal' battalion, with its officers themsleves considered to be 'hard cases'. The veterans of this unit however claim it was made up of volunteers and staffed from Sargeant upwards by proffesional SS soldiers of considerable combat experience. The Paratroop training mixed with the SS ethos produced troops of outstanding ability, endurance and daring. The vast majority fought and died in operation Rosselsprung and acording to Skorzeny the survivors made it out under the cover of a Battalion of Brandenburgers who had originally inserted covertly behind partisan lines to seize bridges for the 7th SS mountain Division. The SS Para and the Brandenburg Battalion ( not division ) came under Skorzenys command in Sep '44. The SS Para Battalion 500 was not originally attatched to Skorzeny, but a Unit of the SS and German Armed Forces in it's own right commanded by Maj Otto Beck. Was this Battalion part of a larger Regiment of SS paratroopers?

Quote Reply

S-2 RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers/Witzig Reply 1/11/2006 8:20:28 PM

Beaver away, Witzig. That's a really good post, just full of interesting possible topics, of which I know way too little. The Brandenburg organization has always confused me, abwehr affiliations, conversion to division, etc. This may be a function of the byzantine nature of German military intel/special ops., but their attempts at maskirovka have succeeded with me-not terribly difficult to achieve, by the way.

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT