Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT

Ghostrider RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers-Malmedy 1/6/2006 11:02:57 AM

well like I said, we can go round and round, and its seems like this subject is punching your buttons Albany. So I will just leave this last remark, dont believe everything you read, and there are numerous versions of what happened there.

Quote Reply

AlbanyRifles RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers-Malmedy 1/6/2006 11:42:39 AM

A quick review of SS atrocities related to Battle of the Bulge, Normandy and Dunkirk BELGIUM Bande 24 DEC 44 34 Village men are executed by members of members of No. 8 SS Commando for Special Duties. Malmendy 17 DEC 44 Stavelot 18 DEC 44 130 Belgians (67 men, 47 women and 23 children) are executed for harboring wounded American soldiers FRANCE La Paradis 26 May 1940 97 members of the Royal Norfolk Regiment are executed by members of the 2d SS Infantry Regiment Wormhoudt 27 May 1940 85 British POWs are placed in a barn by members of No 7 CO, 2d BN SS Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler Grenades are thrown in. Survivors are pulled out 5 at a time and executed Le Mesnil-Patty 8 June 44 35 Canadian POWs executed by 12 SS Panzer Division Authie 7 June 44 40 Canadian POWs executed one by one by 26 SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment So going back to your premise of the thread, abuse and execution of prisoners and reprisals against civilians was a standard practice of the SS. All nations militaries committed atrocities but it was a systematic practice of the Waffen SS.

Quote Reply

S-2 RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers 1/6/2006 11:47:04 AM

"...and there were shots fired by Wermacht troops, as they were now in the rear area of the German advance,..." Wrong. That axis of advance was OWNED by 6th S.S. Panzer Army. Only the lead elements of Peiper's kampfgruppe had advanced beyond the crossroads, and not very far. Who were the wehrmacht troops that did this, from your sources? My sources indicate that most of Dietrich's army were backed up behind Peiper and making poor time. Those were S.S. guys, until I read something that clearly indicates otherwise. The only real question in my mind is exactly who ordered the shootings. There's pretty strong evidence that neither Peiper nor Dietrich did, but it was someone wearing S.S. runes. As for Normandy, the British reaction may be more clearly understood when you consider that it took 12th S.S. Hitlerjugend all of about one day of battle before killing some Brit prisoners, IIRC. How's that for a division starting off on the wrong foot?

Quote Reply

S-2 RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers 1/6/2006 1:08:18 PM

Ghostrider, understand my attitude about the Waffen S.S. I don't question their superb battle skills. They were, in fact, really, really good. While much is made of Sepp Dietrich as a former NCO (much, if I recall, by Von Rundstadt who seems to have had the habit of talking trash about many of his peers-none of whom he'd acknowledge as a peer)and Theodor Eicke, the vast majority of their officers were smart, aggressive, and quite capable. In fact, by 1944, the S.S. had developed a generation of young officers who could very capably handle a division or corps in battle. Men such as Willi Bittrich, Teddi Wisch, Fritz Witt, and Fritz Kraemer were incredibly capable commanders and staff officers, and much younger than most of their wehrmacht peers. There cannot, however, be any escaping the fact that the Waffen S.S. were a political organization first, and the product of an immensely brutal political system which was inculcated down to the lowest rottenfuhrer. Further, there is sound evidence of the movement of men through a variety of details, to include camp guards and einsatzgruppen, particularly in Totenkopf. Interestingly, Von Manstein called Totenkopf S.S. the finest division which served under him. Yet the blood on the hands of this division is evident to all. I say this as an example of the blurring that is common when discussing these units. Moreover, too often there's an attempt to disassociate the actions of the premiere divisions from the heinous activities of lesser units, until one looks at the chain of commands and realizes just how many of these officers rotated through various division posts, moving from one division to another. Thus the culture of the S.S. was thoroughly embedded and reinforced through virtually all the units fielded. In some respects, the fact that 1, 2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 17 S.S. Divisions (the best, in my estimation)were so well equipped may have mitigated against the commitment of even more atrocities, as these units were routinely employed in battle against main Soviet forces. Units such as Prince Eugen (7 S.S.) and the 8th S.S. Calvaree Division had a more ruthless reputation owing to their virtually exclusive use in anti-partisan operations in Belorussia and Yugoslavia. If you haven't yet read Trevor Depuy's excellent account of the battle of the bulge, "Hitler's Last Gamble", I'd encourage you to do so. He devotes an entire appendix to Malmedy, which I've just re-read as a result of this thread. Well researched, it follows the incident with a superb recounting of the trial, the evidence stage prior to the trial, and the final sentences handed down by the tribunal. It makes for interesting reading. Peiper was assassinated on July 4, 1976 at his home in a small village in France by still unknown assailants. He was found dead next to his hunting rifle with a large number of expended cartridges of a variety of calibres about his body, to include from his own rifle-evidence of a hard fight. We should have expected nothing less from this remarkable man, to include the nature of his eventual demise.

Quote Reply

AlbanyRifles S2 1/6/2006 1:20:58 PM

Good post. And my memory of Malmedy was pretty current also since I had reread Dupuy's book last fall and just finishe dmy annual rereading of Charles MacDonald's excellent "A Time For Trumpets" another excellent Bulge hisotry where he also provides a well researched telling of Malmedy.

Quote Reply

Yimmy RE:S2 1/6/2006 2:05:14 PM

I havent read this thread, but just thought that I would point out that the SS were the replacement for the SA, based along very similar lines. They were thugs, their position was more one of political loyalty and Hitlers body guards than professional soldiers.

Quote Reply

S-2 RE:S2/Yimmy Reply 1/6/2006 2:33:45 PM

Not that simple. Those weren't S.S. troops guarding Hitler at the Wolf's Lair when Von Stauffenburg's bomb went off. Highly political, yes. Thugs? Yes, many. Professional soldiers? Unfortunately for those interested in simple answers, they were very professional in their prosecution of combat, and therein lies the rub. It's difficult for many professional soldiers, particularly from the west, to accept that the S.S. could be both "thugs" and "professional" in the same light. But they were, if superb fighting qualities are any indication of "professionalism". That they were imbued with an utterly unacceptable ethos as a foundation behind their combat skills is anathema to most of us, but that's to ignore the truth of the harsh reality that was the S.S.

Quote Reply

AlbanyRifles SS 1/6/2006 2:37:45 PM

One thing I do want to make clear....a lot of SS leadership got their start in the pre-war Wehrmacht, many graduating from various staff schools. They later switched to the SS when it became apparent that there were greater chances of advancement.

Quote Reply

S-2 RE:SS-Albany Rifles Reply 1/6/2006 2:51:03 PM

Frankly, one of my favorite generals was a wehrmacht convert to the S.S. S.S. Gruppenfuhrer Hausser, I thought, was quite remarkable. He stiffed Adolf by retreating from Kharkov in Feb. 1943, and only after Kursk was he placed in "retirement", I believe, as a function of his past transgression against the Fuhrer. Clearly a capable commander of the first order, who commanded respect both inside the S.S. and the wehrmacht.

Quote Reply

AlbanyRifles RE:SS-Albany Rifles Reply 1/6/2006 3:10:27 PM

Yeah Hausser is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT